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Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #122408
12/25/09 03:10 PM
12/25/09 03:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
T: Moses was aligned with God, or, to put it another way, in harmony with God, and this was the important thing. No need for imputed repentance!

M: Do you agree he was not in harmony with God when he sinned?

T: What do you mean by "not in harmony"? What's your point?

Here's my point. Had Moses died when he struck the rock, he would have been saved, because of the condition of his heart (or character).

I mean sinning is not acting in harmony with God's will. Do you agree?

My point is repentance is required. He could not be saved without it. Do you agree?

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #122414
12/26/09 12:31 AM
12/26/09 12:31 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I mean sinning is not acting in harmony with God's will. Do you agree?


You're seriously asking this? Yes, I agree, sinning is contrary to God's will.

Quote:
My point is repentance is required. He could not be saved without it. Do you agree?


As I said twice, no, I do not agree, given how I perceive you to understood "required." As I understand "required," however, I would agree.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #122418
12/26/09 03:15 PM
12/26/09 03:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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It sounds like you believe the condition of Moses' heart would have served as repentance if he had died before repenting.

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #122441
12/27/09 08:51 AM
12/27/09 08:51 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
No.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #122453
12/27/09 03:56 PM
12/27/09 03:56 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Interesting. Do you think the condition of his heart would have rendered repentance unnecessary?

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #122478
12/29/09 11:45 AM
12/29/09 11:45 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
It is because of the condition of his heart that he repented deeply and immediately.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #122480
12/29/09 02:42 PM
12/29/09 02:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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I mean if he had died before repenting.

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #122494
12/30/09 04:08 AM
12/30/09 04:08 AM
Tom  Offline
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14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The condition of his heart was such that he repented deeply and immediately. Dying before repenting would not have changed this.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #122505
12/30/09 03:35 PM
12/30/09 03:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Dying before repenting radically changes things. It means sin was not repented of. Repentance is required. Here's how Ellen White explains it:

Those who have not humbled their souls before God in acknowledging their guilt, have not yet
38
fulfilled the first condition of acceptance. If we have not experienced that repentance which is not to be repented of, and have not with true humiliation of soul and brokenness of spirit confessed our sins, abhorring our iniquity, we have never truly sought for the forgiveness of sin; and if we have never sought, we have never found the peace of God. The only reason why we do not have remission of sins that are past is that we are not willing to humble our hearts and comply with the conditions of the word of truth. Explicit instruction is given concerning this matter. Confession of sin, whether public or private, should be heartfelt and freely expressed. It is not to be urged from the sinner. It is not to be made in a flippant and careless way, or forced from those who have no realizing sense of the abhorrent character of sin. The confession that is the outpouring of the inmost soul finds its way to the God of infinite pity. The psalmist says, "The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit." Psalm 34:18. {SC 37.4}

True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. {SC 38.1}

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #122509
12/30/09 05:18 PM
12/30/09 05:18 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
This clearly isn't addressing Moses' situation. For example:

Quote:
Those who have not humbled their souls before God in acknowledging their guilt, have not yet fulfilled the first condition of acceptance. If we have not experienced that repentance which is not to be repented of, and have not with true humiliation of soul and brokenness of spirit confessed our sins, abhorring our iniquity, we have never truly sought for the forgiveness of sin; and if we have never sought, we have never found the peace of God.


This isn't Moses.

Moses' situation is that his repentance was immediate and deep. This is what was in his heart. If it was in his heart to repent, I don't see where you're seeing a problem.

There's also the statement that tells us that our destiny is set by our character, which is not determined by the occasional good deed or misdeed, but by the trend of the life. What was the trend of Moses' life?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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