Yes, Elle, your post is correct about the body's need to break down proteins. You are also correct that there is protein in nearly everything we eat. To add some detail to the discussion that will make it more relevant to those who cannot eat legumes on account of their allergies, those proteins are broken down into amino acids. The body cannot simply create all of these amino acids, hence some are called "essential," and are required in the diet.

Here is a list of the essential amino acids: Arginine, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine.

The following quote I found online sums up the situation fairly well.


For someone like me (adult) who chose to supply all necessary proteins without the use of legumes, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, on a vegan diet. Here is why.

Nearly all foods have all of the amino acids. But at least one of the essential amino acids will be in diminished quantities as compared to the others. In grains, lysine is the "weakest link." In legumes (beans, etc.), methionine is the limiting factor.

In order to get enough lysine on a rice-based diet, with no legumes, I would need to consume at least 16 cups of cooked rice every day. I cannot do this. My stomach is simply not big enough for that. If I can eat as much as 2.5 cups in a single meal, I'm overeating already. Multiply that out, and I would need to stuff myself for every single meal, more than six meals a day, just to get enough lysine from rice.

Let's say we eat bread instead of rice. I would need to eat about 32 slices of whole-wheat bread (at 28 g/slice) every day to get enough lysine from bread.

...Or 5 cups of instant, dry oatmeal (uncooked). (I suppose it triples in size when cooked, so it would be about the same as the rice.)
...Or 6 cups of cooked quinoa (which is not available in these parts anyhow).
...Or 9 ? of buckwheat groats.

In other words, lysine, even in these "complete protein grains," is very limited outside of the legume family.

I'm getting this information from a very informative website. Please refer to this for more information:

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/protein

Based on these figures, I'm still unconvinced on the feasibility of avoiding legumes without eating meat. If you have allergies to the legumes, tough beans.

Egg provides a complete protein with no "limiting" amino acids. As such, it is used as the standard for proper balance of proteins, apparently. However, milk and eggs are frequently high on the list of banned foods for those with allergies.

As this thread is in reference to accommodating a vegan diet for those with allergies, we must be more detailed than to just say "all foods have proteins." Our bodies require proteins from a variety of sources, and if you start eliminating some of those sources, finding proper substitutes can be more complex than first glance.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Gordon,

I appreciate your input. Unfortunately, the data on that website are inaccurate. "Complete protein" does not equal "adequate protein." Nearly all foods give a "complete protein," which just means they have some of each of the essential amino acids. But how much of each? That is the key.

I have been doing some very careful research lately, of necessity, on this topic, and am frankly scrambling to find a way to avoid recommending meat given the peculiar situation I am dealing with here. I'm thankful that I am not allergic to and/or unable to eat the foods which are off the list for some people. I have no problem, and can easily get adequate protein without resorting to meat. However, there are special cases which may call for the judicious use of some meat. (And even Mrs. White, truth be told, would have supported such.)

That website does not give quantitative data regarding the amino acids. The "graphs" are highly inaccurate, as can be verified by comparison with other, more scholarly, websites.

The one point upon which I will agree, heartily, with that website--and this makes its message essentially true for most people who do not have special dietary restrictions on account of allergies or genetic metabolic disorders--is that all foods have protein, and we get more than enough protein in terms of overall quantity.

Where that website fails is in not taking into account the amounts of individual amino acids which may be present in a restricted diet. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If you get 280% of your needs for tryptophan, 800% of your needs for methionine, 350% of your requirement for isoleucine, etc. but only 25% of your needs for lysine, your body will still end up breaking down muscle tissue, etc. in order to meet the lysine requirement.

In other words, you might get three times as much protein as you need overall, but for lack of just one kind of amino acid, it still fails to suffice. The body cannot convert isoleucine or any other of the amino acids to lysine. It cannot make lysine. Lysine is found mostly in the legume family of plants. There are over 20,000 legumes species. It is difficult to eat a vegan diet without them. So long as you eat "normal" foods, you will get enough lysine. But if you must eliminate legumes, for whatever reason, it is now a big challenge to get adequate lysine.

I found out that one source of lysine, apart from legumes (according to one list online, anyhow), is Lamb's Quarters. So, I went out hunting for them today. I used to eat them back in America, and I know them very well. I would easily spot one if I saw one, and I felt sure I had seen them here in Taiwan before. Nevertheless, I came up empty. Not even one single plant of it could I find. How disappointing.

I'm desperately looking for a non-legume source of lysine that could make meat unnecessary. Oh, and it also cannot be egg, corn, potatoes, wheat, milk, orange, papaya, almonds, walnuts, asparagus etc. on account of allergies. And we do not have access to such nice things here as spelt, barley, rye, quinoa, etc. This is not America.

We do have rice and buckwheat here.

In this particular case, lysine is the limiting factor. I have no doubts about all other amino acids, or overall quantities of protein. But if you must avoid legumes....can you avoid meat? To answer this question, I need to find an adequate supply of lysine from locally-grown foods. If you know of some factual data specific to this, which also indicate the quantities of the food source that would be required to meet the body's needs, I would appreciate it.

If anyone here is a dietitian or nutritionist and/or can give some very specific facts that would set things straight on how to get adequate lysine sans the fabaceae family of plants (legumes), I welcome your input.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

This statement made no sense until reading your link giving how much lysine one needed. As in, just because one food does not have adequate amounts of all amino acids, doesn't mean others don't have the missing ones. But, if you are saying nothing else has lysine, then that might make sense.

What did you have for oats? I found 1.094g per cup which would mean about two cups needed.

Let me try to explain it again.

Lamb's Quarters and Quinoa are two members out of about 150 species of the Chenopodium genus, both of which are complete proteins. And 1,400 species in the subfamily. Would it be unreasonable to conclude there may be others of the 150 species which may have complete proteins? If Chenopodium has 2 out of 150 with adequate lysine, what about the Amaranthaceae family? Would it be unreasonable to conclude there may be other genus of the family which may have complete proteins? And, would it be unreasonable to conclude that given that legumes, buckwheat, hemp, and Chenopodium have complete proteins, that other plants may have them, too?

Why not start by finding out what members of Chenopodium (goosefoot) you have there, then finding out how much lysine they have? Seems reasonable to me. Keep in mind, you didn't even know about quinoa or that Lamb's Quarters had lysine a little bit ago. How many other plants have lysine you don't know about. Rather than others giving you lists of plants and you give all the reasons why they won't work, start with what you have. Locally grown foods may not have the right nutrition you are seeking, but locally growing plants may.

Another question to investigate is why did I see entries of a patent for L-Lysine production from the fermentation of sugar beets on a search list. (Beets are in the subfamily).

By the way, how does meat come to have complete protein? Where do animals get it from?

Kland is right. Jesus said I will never leave you nor forsake you.

There is a local solution. Ask Him who created all men.

Have you any evidence of deficiency?

Have you determined causative factors or valid allergic reaction?

If you wish to go the textbook route, relying on charts, assess patient history to verify any underlying conditions including a blood profile. Possibly some allergies are exaggerated, outgrown or pathologically triggered. History and Diagnosis precede Treatment, Prescription.

kland,

I've learned in my travels around the world that there are some families of plants which seem to occur in just one area or range, and are not evenly distributed throughout the world. Chenopodium may like a drier climate than we have here, or for whatever reason just may not be here in this part of Asia. Tumbleweeds are in that family, I believe, and to use them as an example, I have never seen a tumbleweed in Asia. I am still looking for some native chenopods, of course, so if I discover some here, that would be great. Conversely, we have ferns here that grow into literal trees (and I can never remember if I'm supposed to call them "fern trees" or "tree ferns"). I've never seen these kind of trees in other parts of Asia, only in Taiwan, and of course no such thing exists in North America. Ferns thrive in a moist environment, whereas chenopods do not. Taiwan happens to be one of the wettest spots on the planet, with average annual rainfall in excess of 2.5 meters in the drier areas going up to 6.7 meters in the wettest (that's 22 feet of rainfall!).

Beets are uncommon here. The soil and climate are much different here than the beet-growing areas of North America. I suppose the beets themselves are not native, but are introduced here, like the potatoes which were introduced into Thailand about 100 years ago and are still uncommon there.

A book I found online sheds light on the chenopods. They are not much in Asia, and have not had success in Asia, though they were introduced here as early as the 19th century. Of the chenopods, apparently quinoa has exceptional amounts of lysine. Again, quinoa is not available here.

Gordon, the "patient" in this case has a clinical diagnosis which forbids the use of legumes due to a genetic metabolic disorder called favism or G6PD-deficiency disease. As it is genetic, it is not going away by any form of treatment. In Taiwan, as much as 3% of people have the condition, and therefore all babies are tested for it at birth. The patient also has the lab report from a full workup on allergies and is now able to avoid hospitalization due to asthma from the consumption of those allergens. In other words, these are known conditions and non-negotiable.

kland, to answer your last question, I suppose the animals get their complete protein from one of two sources--internal manufacture (what is essential for humans may not be essential for them) and/or the consumption of the fabaceae family of plants (which are contraindicated in this situation).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It is somewhat appalling that you would imply eating meat is tantamount to being "forsaken" of God, or even that it is in any way related to God's favor or presence. Jesus did not "forsake" the disciples in their long night of fishing, but rather performed a miracle to provide them an extremely good haul of fish. Later, and this after his resurrection, Jesus also cooked fish to give them, and He ate it with them.

If Jesus would not forsake the needs of His disciples, why should I be so narrow-minded as to conclude that eating meat is to be forsaken of Him now?

In other words, God has given me a broad enough mind to realize that the "local solution" might require some meat. I am still hoping to find a better option, but if meat is the only option, I will not for a minute equate this to being forsaken of God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Try Jeff Novick RD who works with John McDougall. These people teach more truth about vegan nutrition than most SDAs:

http://drmcdougall.com/index.html

McDougall Discussion Board:
http://drmcdougall.com/forums/index.php

----------------

Have you evidence of deficiency? Could God be supplying the difference?

Have you ruled out flax, sesame seed?

______________