Rosangela: Tom,
My point is crystal clear. The law demanding the life of the sinner is very different from a “natural result”.

Tom: I've posted perhaps over a hundred posts on this subject and have never used the phrase "natural result."

Rosangela: Justice demanding that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed doesn’t refer to just a “natural result”.

Tom: Again, I've never used this phrase. Please address what I actually wrote.

Rosangela: Christ enduring JUDICIAL punishment for iniquity doesn’t refer to just a “natural result”.

Tom: I repeat, please address the argument I actually made.

Rosangela: Death sentence passed upon the wicked is referring to the decision of a tribunal to punish for high treason, not just to a “natural result”.

Tom: Ditto.

Rosangel: No one would describe the penalty phase of any trial as just a natural result; no one would describe the sentence of a tribunal as just a natural result. That has been my point the whole time.

Tom: Ditto again.

Rosangela: Having said that, I would like to say that my position is that the penalty for the transgression of the law is having to face the wrath of God against SIN, which will inevitably result in the death of the sinner.

Tom: I agree with this. The glory of God destroys sin. Those who cling to it are identified with it, and will be destroyed along with the sin. I made this point in my post.

Rosangela: The wrath of God, however, is primarily against SIN, and by destroying sin the wrath of God will be appeased. I believe what will happen to the wicked, however, is similar to what happened at the death of Christ:

"The Captain of our salvation was perfected through suffering. His soul was made an offering for sin. It was necessary for the awful darkness to gather about His soul because of the withdrawal of the Father's love and favor; for He was standing in the sinner's place, and this darkness every sinner must experience. The righteous One must suffer the condemnation and wrath of God, not in vindictiveness; for the heart of God yearned with greatest sorrow when His Son, the guiltless, was suffering the penalty of sin. (7BC 924).

Tom: I showed through the Scripture texts what the wrath of God is. It is giving those who have rejected God's mercy over to the result of their choices. This is also what the Spirit of Prophesy says. I provided a lot of evidence for this view. You have not considered what I wrote, as far as I can tell. I am addressing your arguments, but you are not addressing mine. I feel left out. ;-< sad face with tear.

I agree that what Christ suffered is what will happen to the wicked. The 1T 124 text brings that out clearly. Also Heb. 2:9 which says that Christ tasted death for every man.

I would invite you to consider my posts above. I put a lot of thought and effort into them. I welcome your comments relating to them. I would like it if you addressed the points I made in them.

Thank you.

Mike, simply eliminating sin does not cure the problem. The issues of the Great Controversy must be made plain. Remember that sin originated in heaven at a time when there was neither sin nor sinners, hence simply getting to a sinless environment does not resolve the problem. If it could, God would have destroyed Satan long, long, long ago.

Tom,

I have been using the expression “natural result” from I think my first post and you never complained of it. Now you said that you never used the expression, but not using the expression doesn’t mean not using the concept.
You said, for instance, in your post of February 04, 2005 01:03 PM:

quote:

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Rosangela: If God deliberately puts an end to sin, then the death of the wicked is not just a natural result.

Tom: Is pain a result of sin? When people sin, does God visit them with pain? Is misery a result of sin? Does God make people miserable because they sin? Or does sin make people miserable?

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I thought your point was that pain and misery are natural results of sin (not an imposed punishment), and so is death. Or have I misunderstood you?

In your post of February 01, 2005 01:20 PM, you said:

quote:

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Rosangela: The fact that there will be a difference in the duration of the punishment, definitely characterizes it as an imposed punishment, and not as a natural consequence.

Tom: Why should that be the case? Let's consider gravity as an example. The higher you jump from, the greater your penalty.

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I thought your point was that what happens to you when you jump is a natural consequence of the law of gravity, not an imposed punishment. Or have I misunderstood you?

Ellen White uses legal terms to describe the subject we are discussing, and she makes clear that they are legal because there is a tribunal involved – the heavenly tribunal. This tribunal passes a sentence on the wicked and condemns them to death. There is no way to describe the sentence of a tribunal except as an imposed punishment. You have been repeating over and over again that it is God’s glory which will destroy sin. I’m in perfect agreement with this. However, saying that God’s glory will destroy sin would not protect Him from responsibility for the death of sinners. As I said, if I introduce you to my presence and know that by this act you will die, I’m killing you. Although David did not directly take the life of Uriah, he disposed things in such a way that Uriah would die; therefore, he is accused of having “struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword” (2 Sam. 12:9).

[ February 07, 2005, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]

Mike,

Rom. 1:18 says: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men."
If men cherish sin, the wrath of God will come upon them (Ephe. 5:6, Col. 3:6), because in the day when God destroys sin, they will be destroyed with it. However, I believe the act of God will be primarily against sin; God has "no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ezeq. 33:11). The reason why the wicked will be destroyed is because they are completely identified with sin, and for God to exterminate sin from the universe, they must be exterminated too. This is why it is called His "alien" (RSV) work. My dictionary defines alien as "differing in character, opposed in nature". God is love, and He delights in creating and in saving, not in destroying anyone.

Rosangela, you yourself wrote that the reason the wicked exist is because God controls His own attributes. You agree with what you wrote, right? So can we agree that the wrath of God is His no longer controlling His attributes? And this is His strange work? At this time the glory of God destroys the wicked, because it destroys sin, and they have become so identified with sin that they must be destroyed too?

In the Rom. 1:18 text it says that God's wrath is revealed against ungodliness and unrighteousness. The following verses explain what that means. Three times it explains that God "gave them up." This is the same Greek word used in Romans 4:25 where it says that Jesus was "delivered" for our offenses.

God gives the wicked up to their choice. Those who hate Christ, love death.

quote:

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Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." .. [T]hey receive the results of their own choice. (DA 764)

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Roseangela, makes sense to me. Thank you. God is not willing that any should be lost, but that all come to repentance.

Both the Bible and the SOP agree that God will punish sinners for rejecting the blood of Jesus. Each sinner will suffer according to their sinfulness. The glory of God that destroys them is symbolic of literal fire and brimstone. The elimination of sin is the result of eliminating sinners. No sinners, no sin. The record and memory of sins will be blotted out.

Yes, theoretically speaking the potential or possibility of sinning will exist throughout eternity (FMAs are free to sin), but in reality it will never happen again. Why? Because God knows the future, the end from the beginning, and He has reported that no one will ever choose to sin again. As it was in the beginning, FMAs can choose to sin if they want to, but they won't, because they love God and hate sin.


Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

EW 294
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

As I see it, the holiness of God confers to His appearance an exceeding brightness. As we know, light produces heat, and an intense heat sets things on fire. Thus, sin will consume people not only mentally but also physically.

"When the divine Presence was manifested upon Sinai, the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire in the sight of all Israel. But when Christ shall come in glory with His holy angels the whole earth shall be ablaze with the terrible light of His presence. 'Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people.' Psalm 50:3, 4. A fiery stream shall issue and come forth from before Him, which shall cause the elements to melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 'The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel.' 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8." (PP 339, 340)

"Sin is from beneath; and when it is indulged, Satan is enshrined in the soul, there to kindle the very fires of hell." (4T 345)