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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12392
02/09/05 03:08 PM
02/09/05 03:08 PM
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If the light of God's presence is a consuming fire, how does it differentiate between the flesh of saint and sinner? Why does it consume sinners but not saints? Why does it consume earth but not heaven? Is sin combustible?
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12393
02/09/05 05:38 PM
02/09/05 05:38 PM
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Mike, you asked quote:
Is sin combustible?
I will state my opinion. Before the glory of God it seems to be. Isa. 33:14, 15 says: "”Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?’ He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly…” Those who let the Spirit of God consume sin in them can dwell in the presence of God’s glory. Now notice these sentences of the text quoted in Tom’s last post: “To sin, wherever found, our God is a consuming fire”, and: “If men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.” I think it would not make much sense to say “Then fire and brimstone, which destroy sin, must destroy them”.
It seems everything tainted by sin _ animate or inanimate _ is destroyed by God’s glory. Thus, this earth can be destroyed by God’s glory, but not the New Earth.
It also seems the glory of God can be partially veiled in order to prevent it from destroying (for instance, while the wicked are still facing judgment). Notice the following text:
“The great day of the execution of God's judgment seemed to have come. Ten thousand times ten thousand were assembled before a large throne, upon which was seated a person of majestic appearance. Several books were before Him. … As the Holy One upon the throne slowly turned the leaves of the ledger, and His eyes rested for a moment upon individuals, His glance seemed to burn into their very souls, and at the same moment every word and action of their lives passed before their minds as clearly as though traced before their vision in letters of fire. Trembling seized them, and their faces turned pale. … In anguish of soul each declares his own guilt and with terrible vividness sees that by sinning he has thrown away the precious boon of eternal life… Then were uttered these solemn words: ‘He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.’ The book then closed, and the mantle fell from the Person on the throne, revealing the terrible glory of the Son of God.” (4T 386, 387)
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12394
02/09/05 07:11 PM
02/09/05 07:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
If the light of God's presence is a consuming fire, how does it differentiate between the flesh of saint and sinner? Why does it consume sinners but not saints? Why does it consume earth but not heaven? Is sin combustible?
Hi Mike:
I have to admit I find this question sad after all our discussions on it. But it does show that you don't understand what we are trying to say, and that we have not been clear in our attempts to explain.
In short, it does NOT differentiate between the flesh of saint and sinner. The love of Jesus does consume both, and does consume earth, heaven and the universe, this allowing the glory of God to consume the whole universe is what continues the events of eternity after the end of sin and sinners. Hell fire is indeed eternal, because it is God's love. This non-differentiation aspect is the very heart of our understanding.
The difference is that some of us will have a character where it will be heaven to spend eternity consumed by God's love, and others will choose to sepperate from the only source of life, and thus cease to exist. Once again Isaiah 33 where the saved are those who live forever burning in the eternal fire. God does not force us to burn forever, but He makes it possible for us to if we choose, the whole history of sin, the life, death and ministry of Jesus and is to make it possible for us to burn forever in this eternal fire, instead of it killing us. It is what Jesus was telling about those who falls on the rock and who the rock falls on. The rock does not differentiate, but how we relate to the rock makes all the difference.
I love that quote from 4T that Rosangla shared! It reminds me of that moment recorded in the Great Controversy, at the second coming where we see Jesus in all his glory. All his magesty. we see that his eyes know and can see our deepest secrets and motives. ALL of us ask "Who shall be able to stand?" and there is a moment of horrible silence. Now does Jesus do two different things to the people who stand there and ask this question? No, he simply says (sings?) "My grace is sufficient for you" and some of those standing there who hear him tell them these words, respond by running to the rocks and caves and say "Fall on us, and hide us from the one who sittith on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb." In this passage the Fire does not differeniate. The Fire said the same words in answer to all who asked that question. What is different is how those who heard his words respond to those words.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12395
02/09/05 08:02 PM
02/09/05 08:02 PM
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quote:
The love of Jesus does consume both, and does consume earth, heaven and the universe,...
Kevin, where do you get the idea that the rest of the universe outside our solar system needs to be consumed too? Our solar system is the only place where sin exists. There's not the first hint in the whole of Inspiration that the rest of the universe will be consumed too.
quote:
Hell fire is indeed eternal, because it is God's love.
That's another idea that finds no support in either the Bible or the SOP. Hell fire is (will be) the lake of fire, in the which molten lava will erupt from beneath the surface of the earth, to join the fire that comes down from God out of heaven. It will burn Satan, his angels, and sinful humans up, reducing them to ashes; then it will go out.
These ideas of yours are interesting I suppose, but they're clearly erroneous.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12396
02/09/05 09:32 PM
02/09/05 09:32 PM
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Regarding sin, or least the effects of sin, existing outside of our solar system, anyone with an elementary knoledge of astronomy can see that. All throughout the known universe are black holes, suns going out -- all sorts of things one would not expect in a universe without sin.
Rearding the hell fire being eternal, you're not paying attention to what Kevin wrote, it doen't appear to me. The hell fire Kevin is talking about are the everlasting bunings refered to by Isa (33:14 I think -- Rosanegela mentioned this too), which is God Himself. He's not talking about the lake of fire when the earth is purified.
The SOP says the same glory which gives life to the righteous slays the wicked. This is the same fire. It is the fire of God's love, or His character (which is His glory).
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12397
02/10/05 07:08 PM
02/10/05 07:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
The love of Jesus does consume both, and does consume earth, heaven and the universe,...
Kevin, where do you get the idea that the rest of the universe outside our solar system needs to be consumed too? Our solar system is the only place where sin exists. There's not the first hint in the whole of Inspiration that the rest of the universe will be consumed too.
This is simply no more than an application of Ellen White's great controversy philosophy, which sees the sin problem as a universal issue over the nature and character of God and the law of self sacrificing love, which is a reflection of God's character, and the beings in the entire universe need to have an understanding and make a choice as to how they are going to be related to God's law and God's love, and that God's glory, also known as the consuming fire, is God's love as revealed in his character, the law of Self Sacrficing love. I could have just as easilly have said that "God's character of Love and his law of Love will perminiate the entier universe." Tom's post hit the bullseye. It is very connected to the next part of this post.
quote:
quote:
Hell fire is indeed eternal, because it is God's love.
That's another idea that finds no support in either the Bible or the SOP. Hell fire is (will be) the lake of fire, in the which molten lava will erupt from beneath the surface of the earth, to join the fire that comes down from God out of heaven. It will burn Satan, his angels, and sinful humans up, reducing them to ashes; then it will go out.
These ideas of yours are interesting I suppose, but they're clearly erroneous. [/QB]
First, this is not my view, I am only a reflector of earlier lights. Infact, in the fall of 1977 when I first heard about this view, my initial reaction was that this view was "clearly erroneous" I did not see it as "interesting" so you are farther a head than I was when I first heard it. And I know where you are coming from.
This view has been taught in our colleges and the Seminary since at least the 1920s (and probably much earlier) As for this view being "clearly erroneous" sadly the official view of the the Seventh-day Adventist Church dissagrees, but has held this as a possible explination of Mrs. White's teaching. This view was held by a number of those who contributed to the SDA Bible Commentary. This view was promoted in different Morning Watch books, such as "Mysteries Unvailed" copyright 1944 by Lynn Harper Wood, and one from the 1950s by one of Lynn Wood's students, Paul Heubech. Lynn Wood was also a close friend of many from Ellen White's inner circle who (and sadly I have only found general comments, and nothing specifically on this view of hell) felt that Lynn Wood had the correct understanding of what Mrs. White taught.
Most Seventh-day Adventists greatly respect the scholarship of Edwin Heppenstall, yet he went to his grave undecided whether or not this view of hell is correct, and leaned towards this being Mrs. White's understanding. If this view is "clearly erroneous" it is too bad that he could not see and warn us about the errors in this view, but taught that this indeed may be the correct understanding of Mrs. White and the Bible.
John, how did people such as Lynn Wood Elder Heppenstall, and Mrs. White's inner circle of friends, or church leaders who worked on developing the different statements of our faith did not see this as "clearly erroneous." Some of these on the committees that would craft the church's statement of faith may not have agreed with this view, but saw it as a possible interpetation of Mrs. White, and would word our statement of faith to be inclusive of those who hold this view.
Granted in the early days of the Adventist Theological Society, their leadership did indeed see this view as clearly erroneous, and had it thrown out of the Seminary during the 1980s. However, today they are not so convinced that this is "clearly" in error and are saying that they may have been a bit too hasty in simply dismissing this understanding.
Therefore John, since this view has a very long history in our church, has been acepted by many of our greatest lights, and seen as "Possible" by leaders who did not accept it, and our great scholar Elder Heppenstall was undecided and would therefore teach both views, may I invite you to tell what is so "Clear" about this error that these people keep missing?
Since we have official acceptance of this "clearly erroneous" view of hell as a possibility in our 27 Fundamentals, and in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, do you advocate a re-writing of the 27 Fundamentals so to not allow for members to believe this "clearly erroneous" view? Do you advocate the burning of the SDA Bible Commentary, the burining of Lynn Wood's books, and the careful editing of Elder Heppenstall's books to purge these "clearly erroneous" views from them?
[ February 10, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Kevin H ]
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12398
02/10/05 11:50 PM
02/10/05 11:50 PM
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OP
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Based on George Fifield's view of the atonement, I would suspect his view on the destruction of the wicked would be similar (to what Kevin has been presenting). He was a contemporary of EGW, whose published writings I'm familiar with in the 1890's.
I'll see if I can verify his view on this, as now I'm interested in knowing.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12399
02/11/05 03:35 PM
02/11/05 03:35 PM
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Roseangela, from your last comments, it appears that you agree with Tom and Kevin, that is, the lake of fire is not literal fire and brimstone. Or, did I misunderstand you? In EW and GC, Sister White describes the lake of fire exactly the way John remarked above. Do you agree?
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12400
02/11/05 11:06 PM
02/11/05 11:06 PM
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What Roseangela, Tom and Kevin are describing is actually a more gruesome, agonizing penalty for sin than just physical fire. The love of God requires that the sinner should have the opportunity to fully understand why the divine sentence is just. The only way to accomplish that is to place his full record in front of him. The intense sense of condemnation and eternal loss will cause the most acute mental distress. Words cannot fully capture the picture of mental agony and distress that await the wicked in the judgment – especially of those who once believed and taught the truth and then abandoned it, or through neglect let it slip away. Our knowledge of what awaits the unrepentant and careless should spur us on to share the gospel message with a passion and love for souls that we do not see enough of in modern times.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12401
02/12/05 08:12 AM
02/12/05 08:12 AM
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That's well put Mark. We should be moved with pity for the lost, as you state, just as God has been moved with pity for us.
There's a story in the Chronicals of Narnia I've been told where Aslan the lion, accompanied by children, come upon a bitter old man living by himself in the wilderness. A child asks Aslan why he doesn't comfort the old man. Aslan explains that he can't. No matter what he says, all the old man hears is a lion roaring.
I love this illustration! God, in the judgment, will be the same loving, merciful and just God that He always is and has been. He will patiently explain to the wicked what happened at every step of their life, and how He was working to win their hearts. As far as God is concerned, He would make them happy, if He could. But He can't. There's nothing more He can do. No matter what He says, all they hear is a lion roaring. In mercy He gives them up.
If you think about there being pain involved when the life record is opened, it makes perfect sense that this pain would be exactly equivalent to the sin they have committed, according to the light they had.
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