Mike,

Sorry for not having replied earlier, I didn't visit the forum for some days.
I don't know about Tom and Kevin, but I believe in a literal lake of fire. I was just trying to reconcile the EGW’s statements which say that fire from heaven rains upon the wicked with the statements which say that it is God’s glory which destroys the wicked. The conclusion I reached was that on the specific occasion of the last day God will not need to send fire upon the wicked. As I see it, it is His glory which will set on fire everything contaminated by sin. It is said that fire came down from heaven (i.e. sky) because the throne of God will be “far above the city” (GC 665) and it is from there that God's glory radiates. The fire is merely a consequence of God’s glory, which consumes everything that is contaminated by sin – whether animate or inanimate. Therefore, when He fully manifests His glory, the earth itself (with everything contained in it), is set on fire. Notice that this phenomenon will occur not just after the millennium, but also at the second coming:

"In the day of His coming, the last great trumpet is heard, and there is a terrible shaking of earth and heaven. The whole earth, from the loftiest mountains to the deepest mines, will hear. Everything will be penetrated by fire. The tainted atmosphere will be cleansed by fire. The fire having fulfilled its mission, the dead that have been laid away in the grave will come forth--some to the resurrection of life, to be caught up to meet their Lord in the air, and some to behold the coming of Him whom they have despised and whom they now recognize as the Judge of all the earth. All the righteous are untouched by the flames. They can walk through the fire, as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego walked in the midst of the furnace heated seven times hotter than it was wont to be heated. The Hebrew worthies could not be consumed, because the form of the fourth, the Son of God, was with them. So in the day of the coming of the Lord, smoke and flame will be powerless to harm the righteous. Those who are united with the Lord will escape unscathed. Earthquakes, hurricanes, flame, and flood cannot injure those who are prepared to meet their Saviour in peace. (The Upword Look, 261)

As James White puts it, there will be two lakes of fire - one at the beginning of the millennium and one at its end (see Rev. 19:20; 20:10). The difference is that at the second coming the wicked will be destroyed in a moment, while after the millennium they will stay alive until they have felt the full weight of their sins.

Ellen White has a pretty clear statement:

“Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, ‘The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.’ (EW 294)

This concept is presented not only in Early Writings, but also in The Great Controversy (p. 673). It seems that both in the Bible and in the SOP the suffering of the wicked is portrayed as occurring specifically in the lake of fire, that is, what happens is not that they die in anguish and then are quickly destroyed by the fire. It is in the fire that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt. 13:42, 50). This seems, however, to refer more to mental suffering than to physical suffering. When Ellen White says that while there is a portion of the wicked person unconsumed, all the sense of suffering is there, I understand that she is not necessarily referring specifically to physical suffering, but may be referring mainly to mental suffering. Anyway, she says that the wicked “will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross” (The Faith I Live By, 338), and since she also says that “bodily pain was but a small part of the agony of God's dear Son” (God’s Amazing Grace, 163), and that “so great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt (DA 753), I think it is safe to conclude that the same will occur with the wicked.

I pretty much agree with what you wrote, Rosangela. Ellen White brings out that the wicked experience the dreadful death which includes the same mental anguish that Christ endured, as you pointed out.

Regarding the flames not hurting the righteous, I see these flames as representing God Himself, as Isaiah points out:

quote:

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Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly. (Isa. 33:14, 15)

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EGW says that the light of the glory of God which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked. I don't see a literal fire could give life to the righteous, but if this statement is understood to be relating to God Himself, it makes sense, because we do receive life from Him.

Similarly EGW says that the wicked place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence becomes to them a consuming fire. This looks to me to be the same principle. God's character is well received by those who are in harmony with it. To them it is life, but to those who are out of harmony with it, it is death.

If we tie the mental anguish to the knowledge of sin committed, then the fact that the punishment of the wicked will be proportional (that is, they don't all suffer the same amount) makes perfect sense. One could also look at it in terms of how much one's character is out of harmony with God is dependent upon how much known light was rejected, which also leads to the suffering being proportional.

Let's see if I can summarize your thought:
1) The destruction of the wicked is initiated by the glory of God.
2) That glory destroys all that is contaminated by sin.
3) The suffering of the wicked will be primarily mental as opposed to physical.
4) The wicked suffer in proportion to their wickedness.

I agree with all these points.

Tom,

Don't you think that God's glory (whose external appearance is like an incredibly intense light) could set things on fire?
Anyway, that there will be literal fire is clear from EGW's quotes such as this:

"As the waters of the flood cleansed the earth in the days of Noah, so will the fire of God purify it in the last great day. Then the water from the heavens united with the water in the bowels of the earth; and in the destruction that is coming, fire from heaven will unite with the fire that is stored up in the earth." (ST, April 17, 1901 par. 10)

Yes, I think it's possible (that God's glory could set things on fire). I also believe the will earth will be cleansed by fire.

You know, the earth is full of fire, just below the earth's surface. I think this will be involved.

Points I think are important, brought out by the Spirit of Prophesy, are:
1) The wicked are responsible for their own death.
2) They destroy themselves by separating themselves from God.
3) They destroy themselves by placing themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence is to them a consuming fire.
4) The glory of God destroys them.
5) This same glory gives life to the wicked.
6) The angels did not oringinally understand this, so God did not allow the wicked to be destroyed prematurely because the angels would have misunderstood what was happening, thinking that their destruction was due to an act of power on God's part, rather than as the inevitable result of sin.

She makes all the above points very clearly and repeatedly. I am not denying that literal fire will be involved in all that is happening at the end, but whatever view we have of the destruction of the wicked must be in harmony with the above points. Points 5) and 6) are especially important to keep in mind.

God doesn't quit being the way He is. He is not schitzophrenic. God is kind and gracious, as well as merciful and just. At the end, God will continue being king and gracious, but unfortunately the wicked have placed themselves so out of harmony with God that His kindness and gracious, rather than being life to them, as it is to the righteous, is death.

Roseangela, the following quotes are the reason why I believe, at least in the context of the lake of fire, that the "glory of God" is used metaphorically. It symbolizes the literal fire and brimstone that God rains upon the unsaved. In both cases mentioned below fire and brimstone come from God out of heaven.

Genesis
19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Luke
17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Jude
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Revelation
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

However, the following quote says that seeing the person of God would cause one to cease to exist. It doesn't mention fire or what causes it. Of course, after Jesus returns seeing God would not cause us to vanish.

EW 54
I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}

Mike, you haven't addressed the problems the idea that the glory of God is metaphorical presents. For your convenience, I'll repeat them:

1) The glory of God gives life to the righteous, as well as slaying the wicked. How does fire and brimstone give life to the wicked?
2) The glory of God is His character. How can God's character be a metaphor for fire and brimstone?
3) If God destroys by fire and brimstone, then when EGW says God could not have allowed Satan and his followers to reap what they had understood because the unlooking universe did not understand this was the inevitable result of sin, how does this make sense? What is there to not understand about fire and brimstone destroying? How is it better understood now than it would have been before Christ's death? In what way would this be the inevitable result of sin as opposed to an arbitrary act of power?

Tom, see my latest post on the “Condemnation” thread for my thoughts on the expression of the “glory of God”. Regarding your third question, if God had destroyed the evil angels immediately, using fire or any other method, they would not have understood why because, as you will remember, there was a link of sympathy between them and the holy angels until Jesus consumed the cup on Calvary. The misunderstanding would not have been caused by the method God choose to kill them.

I tend to agree with Tom that the suffering will be more mental than physical. Things will definitely be different from what we experience today where the mental processes stop long before the body is fully consumed.

But the fact that the suffering of the wicked lasts until the 'last particle is consumed' reinforces the idea of both the physical and the mental. The life of the wicked is prolonged in the lake of fire. This is a clue that when the righteous are given their new bodies that are not flesh and blood and receive an eternal inheritance, the wicked are also transformed so that they are enabled to receive the punishment they merit. It is an important piece of evidence in my view that God will personally reward the wicked so that they receive what they have earned, and sin is not simply taking its course.

Mark, the Bible says that, when we are transformed in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be like Jesus, who left and will return with a body composed of flesh and blood. This means we too will have flesh and blood bodies in the New Earth.

However, I like the idea you shared about God raising the unsaved with mortal bodies that will allow them to survive the punishment they deserve without expiring before they pay their sin debt in the lake of fire.

1 John
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Acts
1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mike,

In a text such as this one,

"So it will be in the great final day, when judgment shall fall upon the rejecters of God's grace. Christ, their rock of offense, will then appear to them as an avenging mountain. The glory of His countenance, which to the righteous is life, will be to the wicked a consuming fire. Because of love rejected, grace despised, the sinner will be destroyed." (DA 600)

The glory of God is here described as "the glory of His countenance". I find it hard to accept that this is a metaphore for fire and brimstone.

In a text like this one,

"If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you." (MB 62)

Here it is the presence of God which is described as consuming sinners. Will they be consumed by fire and brimstone or by the presence of God? In my view a way to reconcile both things is to think of the presence of God as causing the fire in a sin-stained environment.

[ February 16, 2005, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]