Roseangela, there seems to be more to sin than what resides in the mind and books in heaven. Jesus became the lawful owner of our sin and ssecond death when He cried, It is finished. To this day, He still bears about in His body and blood our sin and second death (in the MHP above). When Jesus returns to earth with the saints of God, the third coming of Christ, He will transfer their sin and second death upon the head of Satan, the scapegoat. The fact sin and death can be handled and transported in this fashion suggests there is more to it than what resides in our mind.

1 Peter
2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

This and other related topics discussing the destruction of sinners and the end of sin draws our attention to Fundamental Belief of the SDA Church number 26 quoted below:

26. The Millennium and the End of Sin

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

Let us now review this fundamental belief of the SDA Church in relation to what has been said in this and the other related topics.

Has anything been posted by anybody in any of these topics that in effect attacks this fundamental belief?

Did anybody post that fire from God will NOT consume the sinners and cleanse the earth?

Mike,

I see this perhaps a little differently from you, for I see no other aspect in sin except its residence in the mind and its registry in the books of heaven.

Sin originated in the mind of Satan and from there it spread to other minds:

“To a large degree Satan has succeeded in the execution of his plans. Through the medium of influence, taking advantage of the action of mind on mind, he prevailed on Adam to sin. Thus at its very source human nature was corrupted. And ever since then sin has continued its hateful work, reaching from mind to mind. Every sin committed awakens the echoes of the original sin.” {RH, April 16, 1901 par. 5}

As to The phrase "to bear sin/iniquity," it is a legal expression used to indicate that the person is legally guilty, responsible for the sin committed, and liable to punishment for it (see Ex. 28:43; Lev. 19:8; 20:17).

In Lev. 16 there are two goats, both of which bear the sins of the people, that is, are considered legally responsible for those sins; one of them dies vicariously for the sins of the people; the other does not - he dies with the sins of the people on him.

Now, two people may be legally responsible for the same act, and liable to punishment for it: the person who plans it and the person who executes it.

My point is that in our sins:
1) we are responsible and liable to punishment for having committed the act
2) Satan is responsible and liable to punishment for having planned and instigated the act

On the cross Christ assumed our responsibility for these sins and suffered our punishment (this is represented by the slaying of the goat for the Lord); however, before these sins are forever forgotten, Satan must face his responsibility in them and punishment for them in the final judgment (this is represented by the goat for Azazel).
But this would be a topic for another thread.

Roseangela, nicely put. Thank you. There is another aspect of sin that comes into play, that is, its deadly affect upon the soul during the investigative and executive phases of judgment. Were it not for the blood of Jesus, the guilt and shame associated with even the smallest sin is enough to kill us immediately, and yet we don't die the moment we sin, but we will die when God withdraws His protecting hand. What is it about sin and shame and guilt that it cannot kill us now but it will later on when God allows it?

Tom, please don't misunderstand me here. I'm not saying sin can kills us, but rather the shame and guilt associated with sin can rob us of life. But such a death would not account for the lake of fire, where the unsaved not only die the second death, but are also punished for rejecting and despising the life and death of Jesus. Sinning is one thing, but despising the blood of Jesus is another thing altogether. They will suffer on account of both.

Daryl, I believe any idea that suggests God will not use literal fire and brimstone to punish and eliminate the unsaved contradicts the fundamental belief you posted above. As you continue to read the description of hell fire, as further explained in the "SDAs Believe..." publication, it is made clear that God uses real fire and brimstone to punish and eliminate the unsaved.

In the Bible there is no intimation that it is the "glory of God" that consumes the unsaved. There is clear and consistent evidence that Sister White has never, ever contradicted the Bible. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that wherever she seems to imply it is the "glory of God" that kills the unsaved, instead of literal fire, we must necessarily interpret it in light of overwhelming testimony that plainly says otherwise.

Roseangela has attempted to reconcile Sister White's seemingly contradictory statements by suggesting it is the glory of God that ignites the literal fires that punish and eventually consume the unsaved. Who knows? Maybe she's right. But most likely Sister White never intended to add to or take away from the obvious meaning of hell fire as described in the Bible.

The expression "the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them" was coined by Sister White, and does not occur anywhere in the Bible. Not that this expression is wrong or contradicts the Bible. No, never. But we must interpret it in the context of the Bible. When we do this, we are forced to conclude that it symbolizes the literal fire and brimstone God rains down upon the mad throng of unsaved sinners.

Not that the expression the "glory of God" always symbolizes hell fire. No way. The Bible writers used the expression the "glory of ..." in many and various ways. Consequently, we cannot force it to mean one particular thing. The immediate context of the expression the "glory of God" must be taken into consideration when interpeting its meaning. But we also must bear in mind this one simple fact - the cannonized authors of the Bible never once used it in the context of the lake of fire.

I could not accept the view from some people here that it is sin that kill sinners for they could not accept that death is God creation.

Why did Adam and Eve die? Because of their sin? This is a wrong idea, their first death is because the ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Why do people die? They died because they inherit Adam’s dead body, the death, which is in Adam’s body was passed on to his descendants through multiplication of the flesh.

Why does eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is the cause of Adam’s and Eve death? Because, I believe, they ate a “deadly fruit”, in it God has put (create) the death, same as in the fruit of life God has put the power of life to sustain and prolonged our life, for he had created life in Adam’s and Eve bodies. He didn’t create death in their bodies, otherwise they would not live, but he created the death in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

Why would the wicked die the 2nd death? Is it sin that killed them? I can’t accept this idea.
They died because they were resurrected in their old bodies where the death remain, unlike the living saints who would be changed to a glorious body where there is no longer death in it and the righteous death are resurrected in a glorious body without the death in it.

So, when the fire from God burn them, the wicked died because they have a dead body which could not stand this fire. But the righteous has no longer a dead body and could stand God glorious face, which to the wicked is burning fire that consumed them.

That what I think.

In His love

James S

James,

quote:

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Rom 5:12 NASB Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned...

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Jeff

That's pretty plain!

Jeff wrote:
James,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 5:12 NASB Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeff
Unquote.

You must read the whole text in continuation of that, which will give us a clear picture.

Surely that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, because they inherit Adam’s fallen nature where sin is a part of them, by default all what man can do is sinning.

But the first death happened as the way I described:
“Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.” – Romans 5:14 – NIV.

Here is clearly stated that people who even don’t know what sin is and never break a command, died too (babies even those who were still in the womb of their mother). They did not die because of their sin, they have no sin from their own, even though was born in sin.

They died because they have a dead body.

“But the gift is not like a trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man (they inherit this death), how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man; Jesus Christy, overflow for the many.” Romans 5:15 – NIV.

What is the gift, which is the grace of God: Christ redemption that give our new life, a resurrection from the 1st death. But not all goes to heaven, there is a judgment must be held to scrutinize who is FIT for heaven and who is not. Therefore, there is a 2nd death as the wages of sin, to eliminates sin and sinners forever where only the righteous sinless would live everlasting.

But they died not because sin killed them, that is the point. Death is the wages of sin, but what killed them is their own dead body who could not stand the fire send from heaven to burnt them, or God’s glorious holy presence that consumed them like fire.

So, the text you quoted might say. That the author did include both death in it. Men died the first death because they inherit Adam’s death body and men died the second death (for God would saved men back to life through Christ redemption that does not happened at that time – until the cross) because of their sin. Without Christ redemption there is no hope for men, surely they all must die, and even so, Christ redemption that gives their life back would be useless, if God didn’t maintain this salvation for them through his Holy Spirit that releases them from the power and dominion of sin, making them righteous sinless people thanks to their faith in Christ, which is also a gift. Without the 1st there is no new life and without the 2nd they remain in their sin and must die the 2nd death.

In His love

James S.

R: Well, the subject of the thread is: can sin be destroyed by destroying sinners? It seems to me that, after all the inhabitants of the universe have seen the true character of both God and Satan, yes, sin can be destroyed by destroying sinners, because the sinner is the only place where sin can exist.

Tom: My point was that sin arose in heaven in an environment in which there was neither sin nor sinners. Thus merely destroying sinners would not be an effective way to deal with the sin problem. God would have been served out of fear, providing what the Spirit of Prophesy calls "an evil seed of doubt."

The only way God could destroy sin was by demonstrating the truth about Himself and His government. This He did through Jesus Christ.

After this has been made clear, God can destroy sin, which is what destroys sinners (not the other way around!)

Note:

quote:

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To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.

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Also note that it is the "light of the glory of God" which gives life to the righteous which destroys the wicked. What is the light of the glory of God? It is the truth about His character. That glorious truth is too much for the wicked to behold, because they have formed characters so out of harmony with God's character that His very presence becomes to them a consuming fire (DA 764)

James, doesn't your idea contradict the statements from the Spirit of Prophesy that God is not the author of death? For example:

quote:

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Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. (DA 471)

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EGW has many, many such statements. In all these statements she defends God from the accusation that He was responsible for death. God is not the author of death! Satan is! He is the author of "sin and all its results."

God is innocent!