Of course not. Christ was sinless and divine. He took our sinful human nature upon His own divine, sinless nature.



This is true of the assumed human nature Christ took. (I realize this is redundant, but it's clear!)



Right. The flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. Christ's assumed human nature could tempt Him, as it tempts us, but Christ always said "no," so no corruption or taint rested upon Him, which would have been the case had He not resisted temptation.



It would depend on the context. "Corrupt" and "defiled" are very similar concepts. It would be difficult to argue that it's OK to be "defiled" but not OK to be "corrupted."



Right. Christ took our sinful human nature, but He had the "mind of Christ."



If we sin, that creates a moral defect. We don't have a moral defect apart from sin. The flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. It, of itself, does not create a moral defect, which is clear from the fact that Christ took the same sinful flesh that we have.



We're born with a nature that inclines us to these things. A character is something which is developed. A baby, or fetus, hasn't really done much to develop a character.



Or loving anything. Babies and fetuses don't love. That's beyond their ability.



Which is to say, we are born with sinful natures.



That's a reason we must be born again. We need to be partakers of the divine nature, which we are not inherently partakers of.

Being "born again" also involves a change in paradigm, a change in looking at things.



These don't look to be dealing with our flesh, right? The word "nature" can mean different things, depending on context.

It's futile to try to dissociate Christ from His human nature. And Ellen White is obviously speaking of His human nature in this statement, not of His divine nature.


So you mean that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption, rested upon Christ's nature but didn't rest upon Him? Tom, please, be serious!


We are born with a carnal mind, Christ was born with the divine mind - this makes all the difference in the world. What tempts us to sin is our carnal mind, not our body. This carnal mind is the same as the carnal nature. It's this carnal nature which tempts us.

"Every Christian will be assailed by the allurements of the world, the clamors of the carnal nature, and the direct temptations of Satan [the three sources of temptation: the world, the flesh and the devil]. No one is safe. No matter what our experience has been, no matter how high our station, we need to watch and pray continually. We must be daily controlled by the Spirit of God or we are controlled by Satan." {5T 102.1}


But it's this nature which is "depraved" and, obviously, condemned by God.

Uh, wait!...We are not born carnal We are not born sinners, we are born sinful.

WE CONFUSE THAT AT PERIL OF DESTROYING OUR GOSPEL EXPERIENCE.

Carnality is the habit of choosing to sin, not what we are born as, though it comes from choosing & accepting what we are born as - sinfulness: falling into temptation. As Christians we opt instead for living by the Spirit than living by sinfulness, learning to reject carnal lifestyles. This Christ perfected in righteousness by faith, being born of the Spirit, etc. Therefore, he also took our condemnation of nature and crucified it physically, having crucified it daily by grace through faith, becoming our Saviour from sin, by death. Amen.

We sin because we're sinful; we're sinners because we sin.

NOT: We sin because we're sinners; we're sinners because we sin.

? Christ took our sinful nature upon His sinless nature. That's exactly what this is doing.



The question is she is speaking of His assumed human nature, which is to say, our sinful flesh. As I explained, "nature" can mean different things, depending upon the context.



Christ took our sinful nature, degraded and defiled by sin, upon His own (divine) sinless nature. If one said that Christ's nature was degraded or defiled by sin, or that a taint of corruption rested upon it, that could easily be misunderstood as implying that Christ had sinned.



I was talking about our sinful flesh, not carnal mind. Christ took our sinful nature upon His sinless nature, not our carnal mind.





Christ was tempted in all points as we are [the three sources of temptation: the world, the flesh, and the devil]. He didn't have a carnal mind though; He had sinful flesh.



The flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. Condemnation comes when there is volition. For example:

I completely disagree.
The Word of God defines what the carnal mind is:

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

"The duty of intelligent souls is to hold to the truth, to practice virtue. We are born with a disinclination to both. It is sad to find in one's own constitution an opposition to virtues that are commendable in the sight of God, as submission, charity, sweetness of spirit, and patience that will not be provoked." {TDG 34.3}

"The nature of man is in opposition to the divine will, depraved, deformed, and wholly unlike the character of God expressed in his law." {ST, June 9, 1890 par. 12}

We are born with a disinclination to, an opposition to, the law of God.

We are born with a natural enmity against God. Tom may say we are not born loving anyone, but this is not true at all. We are born loving ourselves, loving ourselves above anything else, and this is evident in any baby's experience.

Precisely. In His case, "flesh" was different from carnal mind. But, in our case, the two are one and the same thing.

The sinful human mind becomes carnal by use; it is not carnal by mere existence.

Don't mistake that, else all sorts of mistakes follow, about Christ & us.

To rephrase it, from earlier: We sin because we're sinful; we're carnal because we sin.

All sorts of issues hang on this correct distinction, including God's ability by grace to save us from sin "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus": our freedom in Christ starts with Christ "condemning sin the flesh" - only possible by Christ taking human flesh with sinfulness in it. It's all interrelated, of course.

Where's that thread on Christ's humanity...?

But..., that's separating Christ from us: sorry, you can't do that. Carnality, in us, results from sinning, not from being born.

Carnal and sinful are not synonyms: we die to self and sin daily by faith, just as Jesus did - we follow his example. Christian reality is a copy of the Saviour. Don't separate us from the original, please, for else there is no salvation from sinning, just from guilt - and the Bible teach salvation from both.

You start to use it as soon as you are born, and this can be seen in any newborn.

Of course I can do that, for this is our only hope. Acquiring the mind of Christ is the only way to be freed from the carnal mind and, thus, from sinning.