M: Please explain the difference between what you wrote above and the following insights (highlighted in red in a previous post): "They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them."

T: Please consider what I've quoted from GC 36, and 37. The differences between this passage, and what you quoted as the view she is speaking against, are the differences.

M: Do you really want to leave it up to me to ascertain what you believe? Okay, I'll give it a go. Yes, you believe the plea may be made that God is too kind, loving, and merciful to consume sinners with fire.

T: Please be reasonable. I have explained in great detail what I believe, point by point. I've quoted GC 36, and 37. I presume you agree with the passages. I presume you disagree with the red highlighted views. So do I.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.(GC 36)

M: “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Are evil angels fighting against God when they cause the death and destruction God commanded?

T: Ah, you're asking if the destruction that comes upon the wicked happens because God withdraws His protection, if this counts as justice. Well, was the destruction of Jerusalem an example of God's justice? . . . So if what happened to Jerusalem is an example of God's justice, and this justice occurred as a result of God's withdrawing His protection, I see no reason why the same thing couldn't happen for the later destruction that occurs. . . I don't think anything can happen that God does not permit. However, the fact that God permits something doesn't mean He is pleased that the thing occurred. . . God is not the author of death and destruction! That's Satan! Satan is the author of sin and all its results. DA 471. So since death and destruction is something of which Satan is the author, thinking of Satan's work as of God seems wrong to me. . . Anytime God permits Satan to have sway, or disasters to occur, regardless of the cause, He does to reluctantly. Of course. God is love. He is not willing that any should perish.

M: I hope you don’t mind me consolidating your comments. It sounds like you’re saying when evil men or nations pass the limits of mercy, God reluctantly withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause the death and destruction commanded by God.

T: No. Please consider the following: Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. (GC 36) Please notice what the "great deceiver" is seeking to do, and also the mistake that's often made.

M: In the final analysis, though, Satan is blamed for the death and destruction commanded by God.

T: No. Please consider GC 36.

K: . . . God's strange work happens at "His intercession in the sanctuary". This is before His second coming, before the 1000 years, before His third coming. His strange Act is NOT burning, torturing, and killing men, women, and children at their second death. . . So now we know when God's strange act is, when there is a law against the Sabbath, when His intercession ceases. It looks obvious to me what His strange act is, the justice and judgment of the wicked which is withdrawing protection from them and no longer shielding nor sheltering them. Is this obvious to others or are there objections?

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

M: Do any of these acts strike you as strange?

K: Should one think certain things are strange or should one consider when she defines as His "strange act"?

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

I think, MM, both your questions to me and to kland are viewing sin/Satan as basically innocuous and benign. So the idea is that God must take some sort of arbitrary action in order to cause something bad to happen to sinners.

M:We are discussing this quote - “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” You said this must be interpreted to mean holy angels cause death and destruction, when God commands, by withdrawing their protection and permitting evil angels to do it. You also said the death and destruction evil angels cause represents the justice of God.


M: In the final analysis, though, Satan is blamed for the death and destruction commanded by God.

T: No. Please consider GC 36.

M:God commands holy angels to exercise destructive power, which you say happens when evil angels do it.

T:I think, MM, both your questions to me and to kland are viewing sin/Satan as basically innocuous and benign. So the idea is that God must take some sort of arbitrary action in order to cause something bad to happen to sinners.

M:Let's take the first born in Egypt as an example.

Do you believe sin killed all those innocent babies?

If so, how did sin do it? If not, do you believe evil angels killed them? If so, how was it not arbitrary?