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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#130242
01/20/11 01:47 AM
01/20/11 01:47 AM
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OP
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Factoring in what Tom has written about Jesus (i.e. study the NT Jesus to understand why the OT Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people), how would you apply the principle you articulated above? For example, in what sense was He honoring freewill when He commanded Moses to utterly slay every man, woman, and child? Where in the NT did Jesus command Moses to do anything? I thought you said we need to study the NT Jesus to understand why the OT Jesus commanded people like Moses to kill men, women, and children. Did I misunderstand you?
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: vastergotland]
#130243
01/20/11 02:12 AM
01/20/11 02:12 AM
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In another instance, God commanded Moses to step aside so He could destroy the whole nation of Israel. Moses refused and the Israelites eventually prospered. What would have happened if Moses had refused to slay the enemy but again pleaded to Gods grace and justice? We will never know. Yet, honouring free will, Moses could have refused to order the killings if he had so chosen. King Saul did exactly that (refused to obey Jesus) and it didn't turn out so good for him. I'm referring to Agag. " And yet Saul had ventured to disobey God, and reserve that which he had cursed, and appointed unto death, to offer before God as a sacrifice for sin. {4aSG 75.3}
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: vastergotland]
#130244
01/20/11 02:21 AM
01/20/11 02:21 AM
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Tom, you've been leading this study for the purpose of explaining why the OT Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people. To do this, you've been describing what the Father is like by describing what the NT Jesus was like. Please continue the study.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#130247
01/20/11 02:48 AM
01/20/11 02:48 AM
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Tom, you've been leading this study for the purpose of explaining why the OT Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people. No, this isn't the case. That's never been my purpose. To do this, you've been describing what the Father is like by describing what the NT Jesus was like. Please continue the study. What I've said is that to understand what happened in the Old Testament, we first need to understand God's character. I've suggested we obtain an idea of what God is like, and *after* we've done that, we consider what happened in the OT. I've said this over and over again.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#130248
01/20/11 02:49 AM
01/20/11 02:49 AM
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I thought you said we need to study the NT Jesus to understand why the OT Jesus commanded people like Moses to kill men, women, and children. Did I misunderstand you? I never said this.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#130250
01/20/11 02:53 AM
01/20/11 02:53 AM
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Thomas:In another instance, God commanded Moses to step aside so He could destroy the whole nation of Israel. Moses refused and the Israelites eventually prospered. What would have happened if Moses had refused to slay the enemy but again pleaded to Gods grace and justice? We will never know. Yet, honouring free will, Moses could have refused to order the killings if he had so chosen.
MM:King Saul did exactly that (refused to obey Jesus) and it didn't turn out so good for him. I'm referring to Agag. " And yet Saul had ventured to disobey God, and reserve that which he had cursed, and appointed unto death, to offer before God as a sacrifice for sin. {4aSG 75.3} MM, it appears to me you could read more carefully. You're asking me about things I've never said, and here, with Thomas, I see something similar. Thomas wrote: What would have happened if Moses had refused to slay the enemy but again pleaded to Gods grace and justice? Surely you don't think this is what Saul did, do you?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#130254
01/20/11 08:31 AM
01/20/11 08:31 AM
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Sweden
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In another instance, God commanded Moses to step aside so He could destroy the whole nation of Israel. Moses refused and the Israelites eventually prospered. What would have happened if Moses had refused to slay the enemy but again pleaded to Gods grace and justice? We will never know. Yet, honouring free will, Moses could have refused to order the killings if he had so chosen. King Saul did exactly that (refused to obey Jesus) and it didn't turn out so good for him. I'm referring to Agag. " And yet Saul had ventured to disobey God, and reserve that which he had cursed, and appointed unto death, to offer before God as a sacrifice for sin. {4aSG 75.3} Saul disobeyed God through utterly destroying that which he had no use for while he spared that which would enrich himself. Moses refusal to obey God in stepping aside so God could destroy the people was for Gods glory, while Sauls refusal to obey God to destroy all the Amalekites had owned was for his own gain. My question rather concerns what would have happened if Saul had refused to obey God for Gods glory, rather than for personal gain.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: vastergotland]
#130262
01/20/11 03:03 PM
01/20/11 03:03 PM
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Yet, honouring free will, Moses could have refused to order the killings if he had so chosen. Again, King Saul refused to order the execution of Agag. Yes, his reasons were motivated by the culture of heathen nations. If Moses had exercised his God-given freewill and refused to carry out God's command to slaughter every man, woman, and child would he have fared any better than King Saul?
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#130264
01/20/11 04:09 PM
01/20/11 04:09 PM
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Tom, here's what you agreed to: T: I've suggested over and over again that the way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions, as opposed to starting with these questions
M: Okay, let's do it your way. Please take the lead. Present your case in a way that explains 1) why Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle, 2) why Jesus commanded godly people to execute capital punishment, and 3) why Jesus withdraws His protection and permits the forces of nature, evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children.
The purpose of this exercise is to obtain a correct understanding of the three actions named above. That is, the "way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions." I agree. Please take the lead. Thank you.
T: All right. Let's consider the revelation of God given by Christ through His life and teachings. What did He teach us regarding God? Let's start with the Sermon on the Mount. What did Christ teach regarding God? Christ taught that one should turn the other cheek, walk the second mile, give the shirt off one's back to the request of a coat, that one should love one's enemies. Is God like this?
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#130271
01/20/11 05:35 PM
01/20/11 05:35 PM
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Yes, this indeed looks like what I agreed to, which is not what you've been suggesting. Note: I've suggested over and over again that the way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions, as opposed to starting with these questions. So I am opposed to starting with the questions you keep asking. I think the problem lies with the whole mindset that would ask the question. I believe a correct understanding of God's character would result in the asking of different questions.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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