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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #130168
01/17/11 04:26 PM
01/17/11 04:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Please continue with the study.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #130190
01/18/11 01:51 PM
01/18/11 01:51 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
We can learn many things regarding God by studying Christ. There's a certain point of view, which I've heard called the "blueprint view" which has the idea that anything bad that happens is a part of God's design. We don't know why given tragedies happen, but we should accept them as things we need, ways that God uses to "prune" us.

While it's true that God does work all things for good, including the tragedies that happen in our lives, the life of Christ demonstrates that it's not God's will that these things happen, nor a part of His plan. On no occasion did Christ ever ascribe any tragedy to God. On many occasions, He assigned blame to Satan; sometimes upon the individuals themselves, but never to God.

Tragedies happen because of sin, and when they do, our hearts should go out to others, sympathizing with others, as Christ did, realizing that these things happen despite God's will, not because of it. Luke chapter 13 is a good example of the principles being discussed here.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #130201
01/18/11 03:29 PM
01/18/11 03:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Would you go as far as to say bad things happen because God's hands are tied and He has no authority to prevent them?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #130210
01/18/11 08:04 PM
01/18/11 08:04 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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Posts: 3,965
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That is not the only option Mike. You, for instance, have the authority to drown unwanted kittens. Your hands are not tied to prevent you from doing so, yet your morals and principles keep you from doing it. God thus does not prevent bad things from happening to people because His hands are tied but because He has chosen to grant the blessing of free choice to His creatures.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: vastergotland] #130212
01/18/11 09:42 PM
01/18/11 09:42 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Would you go as far as to say bad things happen because God's hands are tied and He has no authority to prevent them?


God's hands are definitely tied, but the issue obviously isn't one of authority, as God has no lack of authority. The issue is the Great Controversy.

Thomas' answer addresses this point. God's character is such that He respects free will, the result being that much of what happens in this world is contrary to His will.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: vastergotland] #130218
01/19/11 02:34 PM
01/19/11 02:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: vastergotland
That is not the only option Mike. You, for instance, have the authority to drown unwanted kittens. Your hands are not tied to prevent you from doing so, yet your morals and principles keep you from doing it. God thus does not prevent bad things from happening to people because His hands are tied but because He has chosen to grant the blessing of free choice to His creatures.

Factoring in what Tom has written about Jesus (i.e. study the NT Jesus to understand why the OT Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people), how would you apply the principle you articulated above? For example, in what sense was He honoring freewill when He commanded Moses to utterly slay every man, woman, and child?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #130219
01/19/11 02:41 PM
01/19/11 02:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: MM
Would you go as far as to say bad things happen because God's hands are tied and He has no authority to prevent them?

God's hands are definitely tied, but the issue obviously isn't one of authority, as God has no lack of authority. The issue is the Great Controversy. Thomas' answer addresses this point. God's character is such that He respects free will, the result being that much of what happens in this world is contrary to His will.

Is God free to do anything and everything? Or, is He bound by law and justice? In other words, does He have the authority to disregard law and justice and do as He pleases? Did Jesus do anything, while here in the flesh, that demonstrates the point and helps us understand why He commanded godly people in the OT to utterly destroy every man, woman, and child?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #130225
01/19/11 04:38 PM
01/19/11 04:38 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Factoring in what Tom has written about Jesus (i.e. study the NT Jesus to understand why the OT Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people), how would you apply the principle you articulated above? For example, in what sense was He honoring freewill when He commanded Moses to utterly slay every man, woman, and child?


Where in the NT did Jesus command Moses to do anything?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #130227
01/19/11 04:47 PM
01/19/11 04:47 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Is God free to do anything and everything?


Not sure what you're asking here. If you're asking if God can do anything He pleases, the answer is yes, because He only pleases to do good things. If you're asking if it's possible for God to do anything, the answer is no, because God cannot do evil nor be tempted by evil, because of His character.

Quote:
Or, is He bound by law and justice?


He is bound by His character. His law, and justice, are expressions of His character.

Quote:
In other words, does He have the authority to disregard law and justice and do as He pleases?


God's authority is not limited, but this question is self-contradictory, because it is God's character that defines His law, and justice. So you're basically just asking if God has the authority to act contrary to His character.

Quote:
Did Jesus do anything, while here in the flesh, that demonstrates the point and helps us understand why He commanded godly people in the OT to utterly destroy every man, woman, and child?


If we have a view of what happened in the OT which contradicts the revelation of Jesus Christ, our idea of what happened is wrong. We know it's wrong, because if it weren't wrong, there wouldn't be a contradiction. Rather than quash Jesus Christ's revelation of God, to make it of none effect, we should change our way of thinking, our paradigm. That's what putting new wine in old wineskins is talking about.

So first we should seek to understand the revelation of Jesus Christ, to understand what God is really like. Then try to understand what happened in the OT. Then ask questions.

It looks like you are asking questions based on an idea you already have as to what happened. I'm suggesting that before trying to figure out what happened, it would be good to try to figure out what God's character is.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #130238
01/19/11 06:25 PM
01/19/11 06:25 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
In another instance, God commanded Moses to step aside so He could destroy the whole nation of Israel. Moses refused and the Israelites eventually prospered. What would have happened if Moses had refused to slay the enemy but again pleaded to Gods grace and justice? We will never know. Yet, honouring free will, Moses could have refused to order the killings if he had so chosen.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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