Again, King Saul refused to order the execution of Agag. Yes, his reasons were motivated by the culture of heathen nations. If Moses had exercised his God-given freewill and refused to carry out God's command to slaughter every man, woman, and child would he have fared any better than King Saul?

He (Moses)is faithful in all my house. 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD.

Factoring in what Tom has written about Jesus (i.e. study the NT Jesus to understand why the OT Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people), how would you apply the principle you articulated above? For example, in what sense was He honoring freewill when He commanded Moses to utterly slay every man, woman, and child?

T: I've suggested over and over again that the way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions, as opposed to starting with these questions

M: Okay, let's do it your way. Please take the lead. Present your case in a way that explains 1) why Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle, 2) why Jesus commanded godly people to execute capital punishment, and 3) why Jesus withdraws His protection and permits the forces of nature, evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children.

The purpose of this exercise is to obtain a correct understanding of the three actions named above. That is, the "way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions." I agree. Please take the lead. Thank you.

T: All right. Let's consider the revelation of God given by Christ through His life and teachings. What did He teach us regarding God? Let's start with the Sermon on the Mount. What did Christ teach regarding God? Christ taught that one should turn the other cheek, walk the second mile, give the shirt off one's back to the request of a coat, that one should love one's enemies. Is God like this?

M: Tom, all of the above is what you agreed to.

T: Yes, this indeed looks like what I agreed to, which is not what you've been suggesting. . . . So I am opposed to starting with the questions you keep asking. I think the problem lies with the whole mindset that would ask the question. I believe a correct understanding of God's character would result in the asking of different questions.

V: Yet, honouring free will, Moses could have refused to order the killings if he had so chosen.

M:Again, King Saul refused to order the execution of Agag. Yes, his reasons were motivated by the culture of heathen nations. If Moses had exercised his God-given freewill and refused to carry out God's command to slaughter every man, woman, and child would he have fared any better than King Saul?

V: Mike, you are consistently avoiding my point that Moses in another event/s (Ex 32; Num 14) DID exercise his God-given free will and refused to carry out God's command. And what was Gods verdict of Moses? "He (Moses)is faithful in all my house. 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD."

32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people:
32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit [it] for ever.
32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

"Let Me alone, . . . that I may consume them," were the words of God. If God had purposed to destroy Israel, who could plead for them? How few but would have left the sinners to their fate! How few but would have gladly exchanged a lot of toil and burden and sacrifice, repaid with ingratitude and murmuring, for a position of ease and honor, when it was God Himself that offered the release. {PP 318.2}

But Moses discerned ground for hope where there appeared only discouragement and wrath. The words of God, "Let Me alone," he understood not to forbid but to encourage intercession, implying that nothing but the prayers of Moses could save Israel, but that if thus entreated, God would spare His people. He "besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth Thy wrath wax hot against Thy people, which Thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?" {PP 318.3}

God had signified that He disowned His people. He had spoken of them to Moses as "thy people, which thou broughtest out of Egypt." But Moses humbly disclaimed the leadership of Israel. They were not his, but God's--"Thy people, which Thou has brought forth . . . with great power, and with a mighty hand. Wherefore," he urged, "should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did He bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth?" {PP 318.4}

During the few months since Israel left Egypt, the report of their wonderful deliverance had spread to all the surrounding nations. Fear and terrible foreboding rested upon the heathen. All were watching to see what the God of Israel would do for His people. Should they now be destroyed, their enemies would triumph, and God would be dishonored. The Egyptians would claim that their accusations were true--instead of leading His people into the wilderness to sacrifice, He had caused them to be sacrificed. They would not consider the sins of Israel; the destruction of the people whom He had so signally honored, would bring reproach upon His name. How great the responsibility resting upon those whom God has highly honored, to make His name a praise in the earth! With what care should they guard against committing sin, to call down His judgments and cause His name to be reproached by the ungodly! {PP 319.1}

As Moses interceded for Israel, his timidity was lost in his deep interest and love for those for whom he had, in the hands of God, been the means of doing so much. The Lord listened to his pleadings, and granted his unselfish prayer. God had proved His servant; He had tested his faithfulness and his love for that erring, ungrateful people, and nobly had Moses endured the trial. His interest in Israel sprang from no selfish motive. The prosperity of God's chosen people was dearer to him than personal honor, dearer than the privilege of becoming the father of a mighty nation. God was pleased with his faithfulness, his simplicity of heart, and his integrity, and He committed to him, as a faithful shepherd, the great charge of leading Israel to the Promised Land. {PP 319.2}

While God had the authority to command Moses to maim, torture, and kill men, women, and children, we must conclude it was not His will. And, as brought out elsewhere, Moses could have refused.

K: While God had the authority to command Moses to maim, torture, and kill men, women, and children, we must conclude it was not His will. And, as brought out elsewhere, Moses could have refused.

M: Where in the Bile or the SOP does it say God commanded Moses to maim and torture men, women, and children? If Moses had refused to obey Jesus' command to "kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him" what do you think He would have done about it?

K: I thought you were the one saying it. What happened the other times when people refused to do what God told them?

Here's what you're referring to:


Here's what Ellen wrote about it:


In this case, God was testing Moses. And Moses passed the test. However, do you think God was testing Moses when Jesus commanded him to "kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him"? Do you think God expected Moses to intercede on their behalf? Did he fail the test?

Did he fail the test, I do not know, but it is possible.

T: I've suggested over and over again that the way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions, as opposed to starting with these questions

M: Okay, let's do it your way. Please take the lead. Present your case in a way that explains 1) why Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle, 2) why Jesus commanded godly people to execute capital punishment, and 3) why Jesus withdraws His protection and permits the forces of nature, evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children.

The purpose of this exercise is to obtain a correct understanding of the three actions named above. That is, the "way to tackle this question is to first form a foundation based on what God's character is, based on the life and revelation of Jesus Christ, and then come back to these questions." I agree. Please take the lead. Thank you.

T: All right. Let's consider the revelation of God given by Christ through His life and teachings. What did He teach us regarding God? Let's start with the Sermon on the Mount. What did Christ teach regarding God? Christ taught that one should turn the other cheek, walk the second mile, give the shirt off one's back to the request of a coat, that one should love one's enemies. Is God like this?

M: Tom, all of the above is what you agreed to.

T: Yes, this indeed looks like what I agreed to, which is not what you've been suggesting. . . . So I am opposed to starting with the questions you keep asking. I think the problem lies with the whole mindset that would ask the question. I believe a correct understanding of God's character would result in the asking of different questions.