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Re: 19 - The Sabbath
[Re: cephalopod]
#131619
03/09/11 10:45 PM
03/09/11 10:45 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Ceph, am I observing the same seven day weekly cycle Jesus did?
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Re: 19 - The Sabbath
[Re: cephalopod]
#131620
03/09/11 11:06 PM
03/09/11 11:06 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Cephalopod, The math is utterly simple. The seventh day is the Sabbath. That is what the commandment says. There is no commandment in all of the Bible saying we should observe only the 15th day as the Sabbath. If such were true, we would have only one Sabbath per month. God tells us the reason for the Sabbath in the commandment: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. There is no mention here of a new moon. There is no mention of a special month or day of a month. The sabbath is the "seventh" day. Throughout the Bible, the days of the week, except for the Sabbath, were nameless. They merely had numbers. In essence, the numbering went something like this: 1st day to the Sabbath 2nd day to the Sabbath 3rd day to the Sabbath 4th day to the Sabbath 5th day to the Sabbath 6th day to the Sabbath SABBATH! There was never an eighth day, a fifteenth, or so forth. Only seven days. The problem we find, then, with any type of lunar calendar, is that the moon does not match up to a weekly cycle. In fact, the moon does not perfectly match any calendar times at all. The moon makes a full cycle once every 29.53059 days. This means that now and then some rounding must take place to "re-adjust" the lunar schedule to ordinary days. The moon neither matches a 30-day month evenly, nor does it match a 29-day month evenly. On the other hand, we have a 365-day year, which is divided into twelve months such that each month must have about 30.4 days in it. (This is why some of our months have 31 days.) The moon cannot properly determine a year. So if you have a Sabbath as being always at a certain time of year, you have one of two things going on. Either a) the time specified may be in the winter now, but a few decades down the road it will come in the summertime, or b) an adjustment to the calendar must occur to correct the year's timing and keep the seasons in the same months. Perhaps you can explain all this complex math to some of us in such simplicity as "It's 8 + 7 math ONLY." Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 19 - The Sabbath
[Re: cephalopod]
#131622
03/09/11 11:16 PM
03/09/11 11:16 PM
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Johannes, here is an example of what the calendar I've been talking about looks like... ...The new month "re-set" the weeks. ...Notice that there is still 6 work days followed immediately after by a 7th day Sabbath. 
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Re: 19 - The Sabbath
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#131627
03/09/11 11:31 PM
03/09/11 11:31 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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THE Sabbath honoring Creation according to the Commandment is every seventh day. Simple. There were other "sabbaths" that formed part of the ceremonial law, and not the moral law. Those sabbaths included: - The 14th day of the first month = Passover. (Lev. 23:5)
- The 15th day of the first month = the feast of unleavened bread:
the 1st day and the 7th day of this feast were both sabbaths. (Lev. 23:6-8) - The 50th day after the first Sabbath after the firstfruits. (Lev. 23:10-21)
- The 1st day of the seventh month. (Lev. 23:24)
- The 10th day of the seventh month. (Lev. 16:29-31; 23:27)
- The 15th day of the seventh month. (Lev. 23:34-35, 39)
- The 22nd day of the seventh month. (Lev. 23:36, 39)
These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. (Leviticus 23:37-38) God is telling the Israelites in no uncertain terms that these particular "feasts" of the Lord are in addition to the regular Sabbaths (seventh day) of every week. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 19 - The Sabbath
[Re: cephalopod]
#131644
03/10/11 02:06 PM
03/10/11 02:06 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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Cephalopod, I'm also having troubles with understanding your math. The only way it can make sense is if you are saying Sabbaths are not 7 days apart. Which would mean they are not the seventh day. It sounds like you suggest that there are 6 work days followed by a variable number of other days.
An interesting question would be, how does it fit in with creation week?
That's a lunar calendar but NOT the Biblical lunisolar calendar... ...That calendar shows "conjunction" as "new moon". ...The calendar Moses used understood the 1st observed sliver of moon AFTER conjunction as "New Moon". ...If the New Moon sliver was observed on May 9 the following day would be "New Moon Day". Look at the overlay of the lunisolar on the Gregorian. I do not see how you answered my question. What you say doesn't appear to relate to the question nor makes sense. But try as much as I can, it sounds again like you are saying that there is at least one extra day which does not count (the blank moon). But saying it comes after the new moon well, wouldn't it come after the new moon the same number of days each time? So any objections to your math would still exist, just an off by one error. The moon doesn't change, the sun (earth, actually) doesn't change. So, whether you call it lunar or lunisolar, it still has fixed points. One may be off a few days, but their objections would still hold true. Either there are seven days based upon the revolutions of the earth or it's not seven days. If it's seven "days" from the new moon, then it's the same every new moon. A moon's cycle is not an even multiple of seven days. Which would then bring into question what a "day" is defined as. It is my opinion that you should make some simple and clear explanations or I'm with Johannes and would have a hard time believing God intended something so complex that it takes you many posts attempting to explain it.
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Re: 19 - The Sabbath
[Re: Mountain Man]
#131648
03/10/11 02:59 PM
03/10/11 02:59 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Bump for Ceph. Ceph, am I observing the same seven day weekly cycle Jesus did?
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Re: 19 - The Sabbath
[Re: kland]
#131658
03/10/11 06:11 PM
03/10/11 06:11 PM
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Cephalopod, I'm also having troubles with understanding your math.
Have you looked at a Moon Phase Calendar for April, 31 A.D.? ...I'm thinking you would have larger problems than my math if you looked at one.
The only way it can make sense is if you are saying Sabbaths are not 7 days apart. Which would mean they are not the seventh day. It sounds like you suggest that there are 6 work days followed by a variable number of other days.
Simply put the calendar Moses was following did not have a continous cycle of 7 day weeks... ...The 7th day Sabbath always followed directly behind 6 working days. ...However the "new month" RE-SET the weeks. The Exodus proves that New Moon re-set the count of days.... ...It's the only way the Sabbath could have fallen on the 8th, 15th, 22nd & 29th days for three months in a row. ...If the Sabbath is identified to have fallen on the "22nd" day of the month. ...I can assure you it can be known what "other days of THAT" month the Sabbath also fell on. ...That is what I'm saying. Past that our Denomination requires that Jesus died at Passover in 31 A.D... ...And Passover in 31 A.D. DID NOT include a Gregorian Friday. ...Any Moon phase calendar for that year will show you that. ...Perhaps you can point me toward a calendar which does?
An interesting question would be, how does it fit in with creation week?
That's a lunar calendar but NOT the Biblical lunisolar calendar... ...That calendar shows "conjunction" as "new moon". ...The calendar Moses used understood the 1st observed sliver of moon AFTER conjunction as "New Moon". ...If the New Moon sliver was observed on May 9 the following day would be "New Moon Day". Look at the overlay of the lunisolar on the Gregorian. I do not see how you answered my question. What you say doesn't appear to relate to the question nor makes sense. But try as much as I can, it sounds again like you are saying that there is at least one extra day which does not count (the blank moon). But saying it comes after the new moon well, wouldn't it come after the new moon the same number of days each time? So any objections to your math would still exist, just an off by one error. The moon doesn't change, the sun (earth, actually) doesn't change. So, whether you call it lunar or lunisolar, it still has fixed points. One may be off a few days, but their objections would still hold true. Either there are seven days based upon the revolutions of the earth or it's not seven days. If it's seven "days" from the new moon, then it's the same every new moon. A moon's cycle is not an even multiple of seven days. Which would then bring into question what a "day" is defined as. It is my opinion that you should make some simple and clear explanations or I'm with Johannes and would have a hard time believing God intended something so complex that it takes you many posts attempting to explain it. You are right, the moon is 100% predictable so we can know what it looked like 2000 years ago as well as 2000 years in the future... ...Therefore if we want to know when Passover would have been in 31 A.D. ...We can simply plug the dates into a computer program. ...And see WHEN it was and overlay the Jewish lunar calendar over the Gregorian. 1st point, Christ 'cut off' in the midst of the week... ...70 week prophecy of Daniel as stated by William Miller.
In the autumn of A.D. 27 Christ was baptized by John . . .“In the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” In A.D. 31, three and a half years after His baptism, our Lord was crucified
2nd point, Specific season, 1st month of the Jewish year...
On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain
3rd point, 14th day of the month.
On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain.
4th point, Jesus died on the 6th day of the week.
On the sixth day of the week they had seen their Master die
5th point, Day of preparation.
At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph‟s tomb. On the Sabbath the courts of the temple were filled with worshipers
6th Point. ..Full Moon Day, i.e. Passover Moon.
Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast day. For this is a statute for Israel, a law of the God of Jacob
In company with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky. The city of pilgrims‟ tents was hushed into silence
7th point, Passover feast.
“The slaying of the Passover lamb was a shadow of the death of Christ. Says Paul: “Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.” 1 Cor. 5:7. . . . . These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time. On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain, Christ, having eaten the Passover with His disciples, instituted that feast which was to commemorate His own death as “the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world.”
There are several more points but this should be enough to get the idea.... ...These points do not allow for a cross in April of 31 A.D. which included a Gregorian Friday. Before I complete the rest of this post I'm going to ask for some help... ...How do I post files I have in my hard drive - I see how to post a picture at a URL but not to post pictures I have on my computer. I have all the calendars for the years in question - both lunar and Gregorian. I need to post them - it will help a bunch.
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Re: 19 - The Sabbath
[Re: cephalopod]
#131665
03/11/11 12:12 AM
03/11/11 12:12 AM
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 Hi Cephalopod, i think your calculations are a very pretty thing, but how come all the nations that have the word Sabbath for a day of the week, in their own language, still have it on the same day all around the world, now? Then why do the Yiddish people (who also are aware of your Lunar-solar calendar) still worship on the same day i do, now? So how do we become so sure of ourselves that the Lunar-solar sabbath is not alongside and in addition to the Sabbath inaugurated at Creation; which i endeavour to keep? Noah kept it. ~ First posted by the LORD. For yet seven days and i will cause it to rain upon the earth, forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that i have made will i destroy from off the face of the earth. . . . . And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. Genesis 7:4 & 7:10. Noah counted the days of the Flood, so i think he would still know the days of the week, subsequent to arriving on the New Earth. Jesus kept it. First posted by Mark. ~ Mark 1:21, And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught. So we are Okay up until the time of Christ. ~ And there are no gaps between Jesus' day and our day. Also my words are spoken in the well known context that Yiddish people observed High sabbaths in addition and outside of the regular weekly sabbaths ~~ that i still observe, dear Cephalopod. So why must you leap to the conclusion that the weekly sabbath of Creation, was not being observed alongside of; and in addition to, the extra-mural High Lunar-solar Sabbaths? As even the New Testament acknowledges High Sabbaths. First posted by John. ~ John 19:31. . . . .(for that sabbath day was an high day,) . . . . So you are quite right, Cephalopod. All acknowledge there are High sabbaths. But how does that detract from my weekly sabbath that both Noah and me like to keep? Blessings,  johannes.
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Re: 19 - The Sabbath
[Re: cephalopod]
#131669
03/11/11 01:59 AM
03/11/11 01:59 AM
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First posted by cephalopod. . . . . . or would you ask me to look at the evidence? First posted by cephalopod. The reason it is unanswerable is because the calendar used to support our 2300 day prophetic truth . . .
. . . . PROVES that the sabbath on Passover 31 A.D. was NOT a Gregorian Saturday. Hi Cephalopod, Now i would be very grateful to see any early Adventist references to the Lunar~solar sabbath, Please. . . . Blessings, johannes.
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Re: 19 - The Sabbath
[Re: johannes]
#131675
03/11/11 04:22 AM
03/11/11 04:22 AM
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How can I attach files / pictures I have on my computer?
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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