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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13249
04/30/05 07:08 PM
04/30/05 07:08 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
Where in Christ is seen the picture of God's wrath that you have? Or, more generally, where in Christ is seen the picture of God's character that you have?
The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, to name a few OT examples, which, by the way, are reiterated in the NT. Jesus is the God of the OT. It was Jesus who punished and destroyed millions of men, women and children with water and fire and war and disease and natural disasters. Sometimes He used holy angels, sometimes He used evil angels. His means and methods are various and many.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13250
04/30/05 08:23 PM
04/30/05 08:23 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
1- Tom, I mean depriving someone of life. Can this never be an act of mercy?
"God could not for a moment stay His hand, or man would faint and die." (DA 207). God, in mercy, may remove His staying hand, leading to a person's death.
quote:
2- You said
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that all that needs to be known about God or can be known about God was revealed in Jesus Christ.
This is both in His life and in His death. What killed Christ? Our sins in and of themselves? Or God's wrath against sin?
I had Christ's life, death and resurrection in mind.
To sin, whereever it is found, God is a consuming fire.
Sin resides in the mind. It is in the mind that's it's destructive power is felt, and it was in Christ's mind that He felt it's destructive power.
The principle of sin is the principle of selfishness. The principle of God's character is the reverse of this -- self-sacrificing love. Our sins were laid upon Christ, meaning that the affected His mind. That impact is related in the Psalms, such as Ps. 22, 40, 69, and 88. In Ps. 40, Christ said, "My sins are more numerous than the hairs of my head." He felt as if our sins were His own, and He felt the anguish the wicked will feel at the end of time when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race. It was this mental anguish that obscured from Him the hope of the resurrection. He felt as if He would be lost forever.
Pardon a diversion here, but this point is so wonderful it must be made. Christ viewed His personal salvation is less important than yours or mine. His thinking was, "I may be lost, but Rosangela will be saved." He chose, regardless of the cost, to go through with the Plan of Salvation.
Now when we've seen Christ, we've seen the Father, so the cross teaches us that God values our eternal destiny as more important than His own. That's pretty awesome stuff.
Back to your question. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that Christ's death was like the death of the wicked.
"It was the sense of His Father's displeasure which made His cup so bitter. It was not bodily suffering which so quickly ended the life of Christ upon the cross. It was the crushing weight of the sins of the world, and a sense of His Father's wrath." (2T 209)
"Christ felt much as sinners will feel when the vials of God's wrath shall be poured out upon them." (2T 210)
We note a couple of things. First of all, God's wrath is equated with "the sense of His Father's displeasure." Secondly the "vials of God's wrath" is not literal fire.
"Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race." (DA 753)
"The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked." (DA 108)
"To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." (DA 107)
The glory of God is His goodness, His character. The priciple of sin is one of selfishness. So here we have to opposing principles. The result of this opposition is mental anguish and death.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13251
04/30/05 08:24 PM
04/30/05 08:24 PM
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OP
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Rosangela, the Bible and the SOP mention many things that “killed” Jesus on the cross: our sins, His grief, His broken heart, etc. And, in essence, it is true. Jesus laid down His own life and took it up again to pay our sin debt. But Jesus did not yield up His life, which was being supernaturally sustained in order to endure the horrors of the cross, until He had accomplished the work He came to do.
Was He lucky? Did He resist the throes of death and die in the nick of time? Did men kill Him the moment He finished His work? Or, was Jesus in control on the cross? Is it not a fact that He would have died a natural death in Gethsemane if an angel, Gabriel, hadn’t strengthened Him? Since His life was being supernaturally sustained, no earthly power could take it from Him, no earthly power could kill Him. In this supernatural state only Jesus had the power and authority to lay it down and to take it up again.
In Gethsemane, before He was nailed to the cross, Jesus started tasting the second death. “He had borne that which no human being could ever bear; for He had tasted the sufferings of death for every man.” (DA 694) He finished drinking (i.e., tasting) the cup of God’s wrath on the cross. He consumed and conquered the second death before He laid down His life and died the first death.
DA 758
Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. {DA 758.1}
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13252
04/30/05 08:28 PM
04/30/05 08:28 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike, the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to set men right by revealing God's character. Where is the picture of God you are seeing present in Christ's mission? I don't see it. If it's not there, it seems to me that Christ failed His mission. Yet He says He succeeded, as does inspiration: quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." [u]When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.[/u] (ST 1 /29/90)
Please note that Sodom and Gemorrah, nor the Flood, nor any other OT disasters were referred to here, but the life that Christ lived in the flesh. Once again, you're looking in the wrong place. Look to Christ! That is, Behold the Lamb! (Hey, this might make a good topic)
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13253
05/01/05 12:06 AM
05/01/05 12:06 AM
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OP
SDA
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Yes, Jesus came to reveal God's character and to undo some of the perverted ideas people got from reading the OT. Who hasn't read the OT and thought, Good grief, what kind of god is God? Then, the NT comes along and seems to contradict the OT, until you read the Revelation. And there it is again - God punishing and destroying the unsaved.
So, yeah, we need to understand the wrath of God. We need figure out why He has killed so many people, and why He plans to resurrect them, only to kill them again. Someone needs to explain all of this killing. For a God of love, He sure does a lot of it. And, to top it off, His holy angels applaud it, throwing Him a regular standing ovation.
Your way of explaining it denies the obvious facts recorded in the Bible. Besides you, I don't know of anyone who believes the Flood was nothing more than God withdrawing His hand from holding back the natural consequences of sin, as if the world was poised to implode, and nothing but God was preventing the inevitable. This idea, I hate to say, mocks the word of God.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13254
05/01/05 01:02 AM
05/01/05 01:02 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I'm curious if there's anyone here who agrees with this last post of Mike's. In particular, Rosangela, do you see things this way? quote:
Yes, Jesus came to reveal God's character and to undo some of the perverted ideas people got from reading the OT. Who hasn't read the OT and thought, Good grief, what kind of god is God? Then, the NT comes along and seems to contradict the OT, until you read the Revelation. And there it is again - God punishing and destroying the unsaved.
Apparently Jesus was lying when He said, "when you've seen Me, you've see the Fahter," because as I understand what you wrote it is basically:
1) God is an ugly God in the OT.
2) The NT comes along, and presents a positive picture of God.
3) Then Revelation comes along to correct our picture of God. He's not the good God of the NT, but the ugly God of the Old.
If this is really how you see God, Mike, I doubt there's anything I can say that would change your perspective. I'm curious, however, as to what it was that you perceive God did to you that caused you to view Him in such a negative way.
The truth is to be found in Christ, not in the OT or Revelation. So as not be misunderstood, what I mean by this is that Jesus Christ is the fullest revelation of God and the rest of Scripture should be reconciled with that picture, not the other way around. He is thw Word of God, God's thought made audible. His mission was to make God's character known, and through that revelation to set us right with Him.
There is no darkness in that picture, only light. There is no dark side of God. There is only love, goodness and forgivenss. All the horrible things that happen to those who reject Him, all without exception, whether in this life or in the life to come, come as a result of separating oneself from He who is the source of love and live and peace. He doesn't lose His patience and vent His pique, but in pity and mercy does all He can to save, and in the end respects the choice of His children who reject Him.
quote:
Your way of explaining it denies the obvious facts recorded in the Bible. Besides you, I don't know of anyone who believes the Flood was nothing more than God withdrawing His hand from holding back the natural consequences of sin, as if the world was poised to implode, and nothing but God was preventing the inevitable. This idea, I hate to say, mocks the word of God.
Regarding this, I can repeat what I've said before which is that I was not addressing the flood or Sodom and Gemorrah. So please quit misrepresenting what I've written. As far as I'm aware, I have not expressed my view on the flood. If I have, without realizing it, you could make my quote known, and I'll retract/correct it, but I'm pretty sure I've never said anything here along the lines of what you're writing (unless I misspoke and wrote something I'm not aware of).
Please respect my wishes on this point. I think I've requested this over a dozen times.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13255
05/01/05 01:25 AM
05/01/05 01:25 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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On the topic of Beholding the Lamb.
Mike, When you "Behold the Lamb of God", what is it in beholding Christ that makes you think or see wrath, even the wrath of God?
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13256
05/01/05 02:14 AM
05/01/05 02:14 AM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, it is obvious that you do not believe God sent water and fire to punish and destroy unsaved people. Why you are unwilling to explain it more clearly is a mystery, to me. Since you believe the dreadful things that happened in the OT happened because God withdrew His protection, and allowed Satan to wreak havoc, it does not take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.
John, my view of the wrath of God is a positive view. It portrays God as One who is in control. God is too good, too kind and loving, to spare the rod and spoil the child. He will do whatever it takes to motivates us to turn from our evil ways to Christ and Him crucified. God is not willing that any should perish, but neither will He permit anyone to enter heaven who refuses to crucify the "flesh with the affections and lusts". Jesus' first coming was designed to pay our sin debt. His second coming has an altogether different purpose.
Hebrews
9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13257
05/01/05 03:39 AM
05/01/05 03:39 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Mike, You said a number of things, but you did not say what it is in beholding Christ that makes you think or see wrath.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13258
05/01/05 04:07 PM
05/01/05 04:07 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, it is obvious that you do not believe God sent water and fire to punish and destroy unsaved people.
I wish things were as obvious to me as they are to you!
quote:
Why you are unwilling to explain it more clearly is a mystery, to me. Since you believe the dreadful things that happened in the OT happened because God withdrew His protection, and allowed Satan to wreak havoc, it does not take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.
Why you think you can read my mind is a mystery to me. Since you seem to understand how I think better than I do, perhaps you can explain it to me, because you are talking about things I'm still trying to figure out.
What's going to happen at the judgment is pretty easy to understand, as we have been given a tremendous amount of very clear information about this point, and are told that Christ's death is similar to what will happen, another event we also have a tremendous amount of information about.
Regarding the other more speculative items which you seem to be intent on discussing, since you insist upon this even though for months I have been declining, things do not seem to me to be so clear. I am convinced that God will operate in accordance to the principles of His government and in harmony with His character, but as to how exactly this happens, things are not so clear to me, which is in large part why I have declined to take part in these discussions.
However, since it's so clear to you how I think, please enlighten me. What happened at the flood? (according to me) What happen in Sodom and Gemorrah (according to me). Me would like to know, since up to now me doesn't, but I look forward to Mike enlightening me.
Thank you.
By the way, after completing the exercise of thinking for me, you may wish to address the questions which were addressed to you.
Thanks again.
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