If the church undergoes 3.5 years of persecution, that doesn't set a date for any of the times or seasons that Christ and Ellen White said we're not to know.

Quite.

I also agree.

1. Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming. {10MR 270 (1888)}

2. The people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time [Revelation 10:4-6], reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {7BC 971 (1900)}

3. We are not to be engrossed with speculations in regard to the times and the seasons which God has not revealed. Jesus has told his disciples to "watch," but not for definite time. His followers are to be in the position of those who are listening for the orders of their Captain; they are to watch, wait, pray, and work, as they approach the time for the coming of the Lord; but no one will be able to predict just when that time will come; for "of that day and hour knoweth no man." You will not be able to say that he will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off his coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years. {RH, March 22, 1892}

Insights like the ones posted above make it difficult to believe the Bible contains time prophecies that will be fulfilled sometime after 1844 and sometime before Jesus returns. To what purpose would they serve? Since we cannot know Jesus will return in "one, two, or five years" what good would it do us to know a specified period of time (1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days) has finished fulfilling? Seems to me we would be no better off than knowing the 1260 and 2300 days ended in 1798 and 1844. That is, knowing those dates for the last 150 years hasn't helped us as it relates to the nearness of Jesus' second coming.

For the Biblical and SOP reasons already stated at the end of Post #133845, I see this as the only Biblical implication here. It has the same “religious loophole” connotation as the remark in Deut 15:9, 10. Indeed it is not even a personal character observation. The testimony against any use of any definite time is too Explicitly Authoritative, consistent, pointed and really, when rightly analysed, unambigiuous.

As I understand the fulfillment of Bible prophecy it is according to a sequential pattern, irrespective of time elements that may or may not be present. And that is all due to a inherent spiritual cause and effect order and also a desired order in which God desires for things to develop and be dealt with. And, as shown in this post, eve the SOP Final Events prophecies follow this sequential template found in the intricately structured book of revelation as EGW’s revelation on the Shaking perfectly follows the cross-sectional disposition of Revelation’s prophecies which are all dealing with various aspects of the Remnant Work/Church.

So, though I do not believe that any prophecy will be refulfilled with the involvement of definite time, I do see that the Historical events that were involved in the fulfilling of the (1) 1260 [538-1798]; (2) 1290 [508-1798]; and (3) 1335 [508-1843] days will have a future, eschatological re-occurrence. That is namely and respectively:
(1) there will again be an organized period of various oppositions to work [= 538-1798];
(2) that period will be preceded by decided and seemingly non-related/non-religious based organizational efforts [= 508-538];
(3) there will be a relatively brief, post persecution “respite” [=1798-1843]
(4) then there will be a very brief, post close of probation period that mirrors a “living” without an intercessor time” [= 1843-1844]

All this to say, that if one knows the time when the period of 1260days = 42 months will take place, they can easily figure out when the Second Coming should typologically occur.

Also, as seen inn the Historical Fulfillement of the 1260 days, [538-1798] there were not persecutions by the Catholic Church throughout. They started with the Inquisitions around the 12th century. (I believe this curtailing of persecutions is all in fulfillment of Matt 24:32 “for the sake of the elect.”) So the 1260 days involve much more than persecutions. And I see these various events to have clearly been listed in the prophecy of Dan 7 in vss. 8b|20b-21|25. This is namely (and not necessarily in order) to:

-Papal Establishment - “speak out against the Most High”
-Changes in Religious Time and Laws - vs. 10 Commandments
-Persecution of non-conformers

In the same way, a (non-definite time) of 1260days/42 months in the future will involve period for these three distinct actions. (cf. Rev 13:3-7) So, as I see it even believing that this will be a definite time of 3.5 years, would not indicate either when actual persecutions would begin nor how long they would last since the could start and end at any time during that period. Just like Catholic done persecution in Church History was from ca. The 1100's-1600's. That indeed led to the mass exodus for North America starting around the 1640's. (cf. Rev 12:15, 16|13:11a) So long before that prophecy’s time end of 1798.

Again, my view is those time mentions in Revelation in prophecies that will be eschatologically fulfilled are referential indicators to the Historical fulfillment to show what to expect to transpire. So just like these time prophecies started in History with definite movement to establish the Catholic Church as a more authoritative and far reaching temporal power, (ca. 508 [1290&1335]), it would be expected that those time prophecies would begin to occur when the Modern Catholic Church will begin to make moves to exercise more authoritative temporal and that through its members in various countries. Indeed this can be peacefully and even quite fairly, democratically be done. Once its establish and has removed any remaining opposing world powers as with the historical achievements by 538, it will then begin to take its various actions religiously through that obtained civil power. It is sometime during that time, when those who truly observe God’s Law and Sabbath will be standing in the way of its total sway of power and even declared to be dangerous that persecutions will begin. I have not done the detailing/ “template-filling” of the rest of these Final Events however, I tentatively see that the falling of the Last Plagues will be in the equivalent time of the Historical 1798-1843 period and then then will come the utter end. [=1843-1844].

So as I see it, even if the 1260/42 month period is figured out, if it was actually applicable, it still would not be known when exactly the persecutions would begin or even end. The key is to have heeded SOP counsels long before the 508 A.D. mirroring establishment movement.

Furthermore, I see it as quite wise on God’s part to not involve definite time in the end. (1) Because, as I theologically believe, that end will occur whenever conditions on the ground come to necessitate it. So if men act to pass a Sunday and death decree with a month, then God would do His completing part to wrap things up long before a 3.5 year period (=Matt 24:32). And (2) it is much more hopeful to know that those persecutions could end at anytime, even soon, depending on how things actually advance/develop, rather than know from an ascertained day one that there inevitably are 1259 more days to go, no matter what.

Hope all this is helpful.

I definitely agree.

The phrase THE prophetic time (or the prophetic period, which has virtually the same meaning in the Spirit of Prophecy): the context is that it “must reach to the fall of the year 1844.” (CET 50.1) “We were looking for the Savior to come in 1844.” (HS 213.2) “…The prophetic period which was to extend to the coming of Christ.” (DA 98.4) In almost every instance where the Spirit of Prophecy mentions the prophetic time, the context links it to the definite time of Christ’s Advent in 1844: not time prophecies in general. In context, EGW is saying: the people will not have another message upon the definite time of Christ’s Advent after 1844. Yet when prophetic time is wrenched from its true meaning, the consensus among Seventh-day Adventists has become that all time prophecies stopped in 1844. Her words are read as: This time, which the angel declares... is...the end...of prophetic time.





If ALL time prophecy ended in 1844, another time prophecy after 1844 in the Bible would prove the Spirit of Prophecy to be in error. Wrong. It would prove a common misinterpretation of the SOP to be in error. The most common examples are the 1260, 1290, and 1335-days in Daniel that the Spirit of prophecy clearly state relate to the last days - after 1844. But when people explain away the obvious to cling to the things that they have been taught and believe, no amount of evidence will change their private interpretations.



Consider just one proof you offer above "They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. {2SM 73.2}" The problem was not prophetic time. These people were rebuked for reinterpreting the 2300-days and recalculating the end of the 2300-days to change the waymark from 1844 to 1884.

The proof that you offer is out of context and does not relate to the topic as you are attempting to have it.



The case of Brother Hewit may prove that all prophetic time did not stop in 1844. He was teaching errors. Was he teaching that the 1335 were in the past and Ellen White rebuked him stating that he was wrong? Or was her rebuke that they had ended?

"We told him [Brother H] of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended, and numerous [other] errors of his.--Letter 28, 1850, pp. 1-3 (To "The Church in Brother Hastings' House," November 7, 1850.) {5MR 203.2}" See what Ellen says:


63-years after 1844 EGW places the 1335-days in the present or future.


In EGW's comment above she clearly stated in 1907 that it was time to understand the 1335-days as Daniel was TODAY standing in his lot. And she linked the context of the 1235-days to Michael's standing in the LAST DAYS. She is consistent:





Error is error. The context of the quotes is that they rebuke error. If another error creeps into the church after the first is rebuked the rebuke is still valid for the new error as it was for the older error. Your argument is that because you do not believe that the teaching that you hold dear is in error that it cannot be rebuked as such. But since it is in error the rebuke is valid.

Thank you for the clarification. I should have been more clear. If you go back to the context in Ezra, Ezra was referring to the "First day of the 5th Month" of the king's reign not the Hebrew Calender. Thus secular and the and the Hebrew Calender use different terms to say the same date.

Interesting questions.

1) the implementation of the mark of the beast will involve a mechanism yet to be known to control buying and selling it is something that God warns us not to " receive" Yes Sabbath is the issue, but there is a mechanism as well

2)Mr Obama is the leader of America, the last nation identified in the Spirit of prophecy that will persecute God's people

3)2007 is the year that I began giving the loud cry

The video in question was a complementary gift that a man put together to go along with my audio sound track that I wrote.