If you could see the 1335 number then you can see that it is also plugged into the 508+1335=1843 chronology calculation.



To enlarge the words, you can try either zoom the image right in your browser or download the image [usually: ‘Right click’; ‘Save image as’] and enlarge it on your computer which at least has some basic image viewing software.

If that is not sufficient or cannot work, if you have the 2008 EGW CD ROM ($19.95), you can read Miller’s own explanations in the “Works of the Pioneers” section. The General Conference Archive has many post of Miller’s “Midnight Cry” (= 1842) messages.



It’s William Miller’s chart...he did not even accept the Midnight Cry (1844) message, why would it be relating to any date past his obstinate one of the Spring of 1843??



The 1335-1290=45 is only to show that there will be a 45 day difference between their fulfillments. And they are indeed related because, as common SDA interpretation teaches, see SDA Commentary, the 1290 and the 1335 days both started in 508 B.C.



As it was also later elaborated on by her and other SDA of her time, and throughout SDA history, the error was not adding a year for the B.C. to A.D. switch in the reckoning. Thus Miller’s 1843 year should have been 1844. His Spring ending was also corrected by the anti typical Day of Atonoment ‘10th day of the 7th Jewish Month’ reckoning which resulted in the October 22 date that year.



Not anymore. Indeed by the time EGW was retrospectively writing this, they were discovered and corrected by these Early Adventists, and actually before October 22, 1844.



Where are you reading/deriving: “his errors ...(phrase)...and numerous errors”?? I see that she merely said “mistake in some of the figures” and these were corrected before 1844, as God indeed had removed his covering hand by then.

As I understand it, this was done for the (potential) good of those Millerites as it should have served to make them fully ready by 1843 and also serve to weed out the non serious joiners of this group during the “tarrying time”.



Only the 1843 to 1844 corrections were implicated in this error.



I personally agree. It wouldn’t be the first time that a Bible version publisher made this chapter separation error from the original text. Though I would further say that both ch. 10-12 should be a single chapter as it is the same uninterrupted ‘visitation and vision’ episode/sequence.



Such criticism was not very common in those days or generally not endorsingly echoed by most Christians, especially lay men and women.



If, as you are positing, she knew that these first 4 verses were part of chapter 11 and not 12, then how would her statement to study chapter 12 include those first 4 verses?? I straightly understand that she meant Daniel 12 as it clearly read in her day, which is still the same now. Indeed, as pointed out above, it contains unfulfilled, and also (non-timed), re-fulfillable elements, from verse 1 and throughout.

Sabbath blessings. I have some extra time I wasn't expecting.

NJK, the Lord advised both us and the early church to study the abomination of desolation in Daniel. Why? What were the results of the study of Daniel's abomination in the early church? What did they conclude? Didn't their study tell them when to flee? Is it a large leap that His counsel to study the abomination in Daniel is the same for our time? If so, is it wise disassociating the time elements of these prophecies from the context?

True, when these prophecies were first fulfilled in 70 AD, there was no time element. But that can be viewed in two ways: It can be viewed as support for a time-free end time application, or it can be viewed as support for taking the entire prophecy together because the time elements have never been fulfilled in the end-time context. We'd agree that these prophecies are especially for the final generation, right?

It's also true that the 1260 days mentioned in a number of places were fulfilled in the dark ages but according the Christ's statements and other scripture, the abomination of desolation applies especially to the end, not to the dark ages. Are we safe in assuming that this most important application - to the final generation - can be severed from its time elements? What scriptural authority do we have to sever elements of this prophecy from its most important application?

NJK, I believe in outpost ministry. But even those in remote outposts will still have to flee. I admit I'm not sure myself how to apply the time elements. I'm studying them. The actual flight may be at the end of the 1260 days. This is what I tend to think. That's why understanding when the prophecy begins could be a matter of life and death.

On a related topic, can you tell me in simple words that all our readers can understand why you think Revelation 11 applies to leaders and who the two witnesses are? I've said above, I think the two witnesses are those who give the measuring/three angel's messages. You're saying the measuring message is for the leaders, right? Don't John's instructions to measure the temple and those who worship there include the entire church - that is all who take the name of Christ? What group is in the outer court that John is told not to measure?

But regarding EGW's prohibitions on time setting, I have addressed that in other posts but you don't see it the same way which is fine. However, you err in attributing base motives to those who don't share your views.

Regarding the idea that the warning is simply that we need to be ready character-wise for the close of probation, if that was the import of the warning we already have a clear understanding on that point. There would be no need to study Daniel 12 because we already have an understanding of the importance of being ready for the close of human probation. IMO there is some specific information in chapter 12 that collectively and individually we lack understanding on. If it's not the close of probation or the time to flee, what is it?

The factual answer is the Early Church fled Jerusalem in ca. 66 A.D. only after the Roman contigent under Cestus suddenly ended their seige of Jerusalem. It is only then, at the arrival of these Army Divisions, that, as Jesus had told them, that they saw that Jerusalem was about to be besieged and fled. It was not out of having calculated any time which showed them that they should flee in 66 A.D. and with the war ending during 70 A.D., after a return by Titus in late 69 A.D., ca. 3.5 years past since the initial siege and the utter end. So the prophecy in Daniel would have found its literal time fulfillment of a literal 1260 days then. My further view is that it was only because the NT (Gentile) Church was not fully ready then that the rest of these prophecies, and the Second Coming did not occur then, and time was proplonged and the Historical Age set in, when now most of these prophecies were going to be symbolically fulfilled. E.g., 1260 days = 1260 years.



As explained above, I not only have the view time was involved in the fulfillments that occurred by 70 A.D., though the Church was not aware*, (hence an example that time is not really crucial, as also seen in Church History), but also that prophecies are fulfilled, even if partially, in either the Literal, Historical and Eschatological. I don’t have an ‘all or nothing’ view here.

*The timed 70 Weeks prophecy was also fulfilled in this “unaware of” way amongst the Apostolic Church.



I am of the view that they are for whatever generation Finishes the underlying work that will cause them to be unravelled. So it could have been for the Local/Literal “generation” ending 70 A.D., the Historical “generation” ending in 1844; or the, actually prolongedly, ongoing, and that since 1844, Eschatological “generation”. God will only release the 4 Winds that produce the fulfillment of these prophecies when a generation does the required Gospel Work.



As stated above, I believe the final generation could have been at any three prior points 70 A.D., 1844 and the present one. I also see two other occasions when it could have occurred within the Eschatological (post 1844 times), namely ca. 1888 and ca. 1996.

As the statement that EGW made in regards to this ‘end of prophetic time” were both “I was shown statements and in pointed explanatory reference to what was (also) expressed in the Bible in Rev 10:6; then I see that there doubly is Scriptural/Inspired Authority to accept this as God’s express and incontrovertible will.



Outposts are not for a place to hide. Since the days of EGW there virtually was no place where one can hid, especially today. (Indeed anyone with e.g, Google Earth today can find/see where anyone lives.) The reason to live in outposts were for Spiritual and Practical, Gospel Work Reasons. (1) To maintain a Spiritual “purity” and (2) serve as a great economic advantage vs. the economic trap that city dwellers are in and will be stuck in when hard times hit. Furthermore, not only is the Work not being done by not heeding these Inspired counsels, thus “frustrating” Final Events, but, just like with the Lot episode, God cannot send the deserved initial/Little Time of Trouble destructions on cities while His people are still living there. So by not heeding these counsels, and that out of comparable world-loving reasons as the rest of the unconverted world, God’s own people are directly, and in large part, responsible for delaying the end.



I can “in one sentence” or so, but you’ll need to read my blog post to understand why. The word: “Altar” refers to the temple ministry and has pointed emphasis in the Greek. The ‘7000 names of men’ and the “tenth” refer to the non formal leadership, yet who are still part of the leadership. These are said to fall, but some remain. The outer court is not measured in this event as these now are“non-SDA Christians” who did not have this privileged opportunity to understand these Truths. Hence they are not judged in this first phase of final judgement. Even within the SDA Church there are honest members who have been misled by the wrong example of leaders, so they too are spared in this judgement. So while it was to involve the whole Church, as it goes on to show, only the leadership, whether formal or informal are judged, and as shown in the corroborating Whirlwind vision, which I believe for concrete reasons was given to EGW, the rest of the Church survive this judgement but must then reorganize themselves.



Where exactly?



I believe there is only one Truth. So if I am wrong you should be able to point out in my responses above where you think I am.



That is made in the light of the SOP’s standing counsel against any Eschatological time-setting and time reckoning. Reasons of, effectively, ‘wanting to known exactly when to obey SOP counsels’ especially in the light of Christ’s related statement in Matt 16:1-4 Biblically only lead me to view this as base thinking. We are to obey and discern the signs, not set dates and/or act only because of time reckonings. The ironic thing is that, since the Bible/SOP is clear that there will be no time involved in Eschatological fulfillments, those looking to set times will misguide themselves. E.g., they’ll put off the second coming 3.5 year after the start of some clear even, while Jesus may return in 2 months after that, or 8 years after that. I.e. whenever the work on the ground is done and allows for the furthering of fulfillments. That is what this Eschatological age is all about.

As stated earlier, I see that EGW counsel to study Dan 12 also involves understanding how the times of the 1260, 1290 and 1335 were established and transpired Historically and Spiritually apply to our day to perceive when similar movements are beginning to develop. Still no time will be involved and, really uselessly enough, using definite time here would only provide one with the supposed duration, and ending date for those events, and not any advanced warning of when to flee. If one is waiting for probation to close in order to flee the ensuing calamities, then it will be way to late. As the “type” example of Noah showed, they had to get in the Ark before that door of probation was shut. The same occurred with every Shut Door in Biblical/Prophetic History.

Only Spiritually heeding counsels to protect against those times will make one be prepared before they begin to occur. So knowing the definite time really serves no crucial purpose, the hardships during these, actually concurrent, periods of great opposition will still be just as hard even if one knows the time. However to those who obeyed counseled and prepared long before, they will actually be more defensible/tolerable.

So really character and spiritual preparation is the key here and not (the spurious) time reckoning/date setting. And as the Bible says, the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God and one will most vitally need this Spiritual Guidance for those times.

So who are the two witnesses?

In the Historical Wave they were the Bible (OT & NT) in general vs. the Spiritual damages being done by the Catholic Church against it. In the Eschatological Wave, as stated on my blog post, it is most prominently the tangible, distinct but complimentary, missions and messages of Moses and Elijah which are to oppose and put down the current movements, pointedly in the present Remnant Church, to not do things according to God’s laws but in a worldly-conforming and “idolatrous” way, according to worldly views, policies and practices. (5T 81.1; cf. LDE 116.1-2) Those who, as it was related in Rev 10:8-11 “ingest” and thus “embody” the message come to be a corporal part of this reform movement.

kland, I'm not sure why you would reference me on this point, as I do not recall ever posting to this thread.

This is a good point.

I agree with this.