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Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Mountain Man] #136712
10/11/11 10:22 AM
10/11/11 10:22 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Moses inquired of Jesus the right course of action to be taken in the case of the Sabbath-breaker. It was Jesus who commanded that he be stoned to death. The reason it doesn't nowadays is the fact Jesus doesn't command it.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Too funny. Can you name a time the Jews stoned a Sabbath-breaker without Jesus' consent and command? I'm referring to Jesus in the OT.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus never left it up to the Jews to stone Sabbath-breakers. He reserved the right to make the final decision.


Mike,

I think there is another side to this story. That is, Jesus did give commands to the children of Israel that would put them in the place of deciding some cases for stoning. Certainly, the case of the Sabbath-breaker may well have been setting a precedent. No further examples of that particular crime are recorded, but this does not mean the Jews never saw it again. We simply do not know if they did or not.

Consider the following commands.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. (Leviticus 20:2)

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. (Leviticus 20:27)

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16)


In a broader context, command is given to stone anyone who would lead the children of Israel away from God.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you. (Deuteronomy 13:6-11)


With such commands as these, God gave authority to His people to stone for certain classes of transgression.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #136720
10/11/11 02:47 PM
10/11/11 02:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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GC, Jesus also set up a system, the Urim and Thummim, whereby Jews could inquire of Jesus whether or not to implement the death penalty. The law allows for mercy when motives are right, and only Jesus can rightly discern motives.

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Mountain Man] #136734
10/11/11 05:48 PM
10/11/11 05:48 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Mike,

Why would you ask for a sign from God (Urim and Thummim) on something for which His will has already been revealed?

If God said to stone witches, and you find a witch, do you need to use Urim and Thummim to ask His permission to stone the witch? Do you need to know the motives of the witch? If so, why? Is there anything written in the law which says "If the person rebelliously chose to be a witch..." OR "if the witch did not repent, then...?"

I'm not seeing it. Help me here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #136749
10/12/11 12:49 AM
10/12/11 12:49 AM
dedication  Online Content
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A lot of innocent women were killed during the "witch hunts" who WEREN'T witches at all.

I'm sure glad we are answerable to God not to over zealous people.

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: dedication] #136750
10/12/11 01:07 AM
10/12/11 01:07 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Ez. 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ez. 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: dedication] #136752
10/12/11 03:42 AM
10/12/11 03:42 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Dedication,

You've brought up some good points there, and I agree with you on them, but they don't address the fundamental question I was asking.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Green Cochoa] #136758
10/12/11 02:34 PM
10/12/11 02:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Mike, why would you ask for a sign from God (Urim and Thummim) on something for which His will has already been revealed? If God said to stone witches, and you find a witch, do you need to use Urim and Thummim to ask His permission to stone the witch? Do you need to know the motives of the witch? If so, why? Is there anything written in the law which says "If the person rebelliously chose to be a witch..." OR "if the witch did not repent, then...?" I'm not seeing it. Help me here.

Mercy is an inherent part of the law. It goes without saying. "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." "The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty."

Can we trust ourselves to get it right without consulting Jesus? Are all cases so obvious that we need never ask Jesus? Not even the RCC executed witches and heretics without first seeking a sign.

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Mountain Man] #136775
10/12/11 05:46 PM
10/12/11 05:46 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Can we trust ourselves to get it right without consulting Jesus? Are all cases so obvious that we need never ask Jesus? Not even the RCC executed witches and heretics without first seeking a sign.
Was there any law the Jews followed, stoning or otherwise, where they did not consult Jesus?

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: kland] #136805
10/13/11 09:46 PM
10/13/11 09:46 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Are you referring to only the punitive laws?

Re: Why arent Adventist stoning the Sabbath Breaker? [Re: Mountain Man] #136806
10/14/11 12:01 AM
10/14/11 12:01 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Mike, do you think when God gave the laws for stoning that they reflected His will? Would He have given any laws which were not in accordance with His will? or that the people should not follow without further consultation with Him?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God has made known His will, and it is folly for man to question that which has gone out of His lips. After Infinite Wisdom has spoken, there can be no doubtful questions for man to settle, no wavering possibilities for him to adjust. All that is required of him is a frank, earnest concurrence in the expressed will of God. Obedience is the highest dictate of reason as well as of conscience. {AA 506.2}


It appears to me that Mrs. White supports the concept that once God has spoken, we need not ask His will on the matter further. Here's another quote of a similar nature.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
There are thousands at the present day who are pursuing a similar course. They would have no difficulty in understanding their duty if it were in harmony with their inclinations. It is plainly set before them in the Bible or is clearly indicated by circumstances and reason. But because these evidences are contrary to their desires and inclinations they frequently set them aside and presume to go to God to learn their duty. With great apparent conscientiousness they pray long and earnestly for light. But God will not be trifled with. He often permits such persons to follow their own desires and to suffer the result. "My people would not hearken to My voice. . . . So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels." Psalm 81:11, 12. When one clearly sees a duty, let him not presume to go to God with the prayer that he may be excused from performing it. He should rather, with a humble, submissive spirit, ask for divine strength and wisdom to meet its claims. {PP 440.4}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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