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Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: asygo] #137918
12/06/11 02:37 AM
12/06/11 02:37 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: asygo
No comment on the doctrinal issue for now, but I must say that I like the table format very much.
Thank you. It takes a bit of time to put it together, but I think it helps make the comparison clear. I'm interested in your comments on the doctrine aspect.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: asygo] #137920
12/06/11 10:11 AM
12/06/11 10:11 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
Just because it is different doesn't mean it's wrong or right. Just because our favorite verses may not really exist, doesn't mean leaving them out is wrong. What matters is whether it is correct, not whether it supports our belief system or not.

I have missed most of this discussion due to time constraints, but I heartily agree with this sentiment. Different does not necessarily mean wrong, as many KJV-only folks believe. And new does not necessarily mean better, as many pro-modern-translation folks believe. And older does not necessarily mean more accurate, as many pro-Westcott-Hort folks believe.

Correct is better.
Now lets make it clear, I am not a KJV-Only person at all, so we can get that out of the way. I like the NIV but after looking at the sources and background I will go to the text of those version from the Majority Text of which the King James Version is one, when it comes to doctrinal or theological points. If I knew Greek/Hebrew I would go to the originals but I havent learned those yet. As to just being different words or better modern translation, I have no problem with. But if it is changes with a purpose then a red flag goes up and we need to be alert to why it was done, and these Alexandrian Codices are a full fledge red flag hurricane warning to any Christian and they need to carefully look to see what has been altered, deleted or changed and understand the purpose behind it...

Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: kland] #137921
12/06/11 10:20 AM
12/06/11 10:20 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I ask you to carefully read your Bibles and then ask yourself, do the changes make any difference,
But I'm not sure that is a proper question. Just because it is different doesn't mean it's wrong or right. Just because our favorite verses may not really exist, doesn't mean leaving them out is wrong. What matters is whether it is correct, not whether it supports our belief system or not.

If there are changes to the Bible a Christian must ask themselves that question, or we end up as other adventist believers did, the Jehovah Witnesses, lost in a Westcott & Hort confusion as that is the source they used then deleted and changed even more.


As to the Septuagint....here is more: The "Septuagint" papyri (we have listed all 23 of them with all that they contain and the dates they were written in The Christian's Handbook of Manuscript Evidence pp.48-51, published in 1970) were all written within 60 to 500 years after John finished writing the Book of Revelation."

4 Greek manuscripts from which the Septaugint came include:

A- "Alexandrinus:" written more than 300 years after the completion of the New Testament. It omits Genesis 14:14-17; 15:1-6, 16-19, 16:6-10, Leviticus 6:19-23, 1 Samuel 12:17-14:9, 1 Kings 3-6 and Psalms 69:19-79:10.
Aleph-"Sinaiticus:" written more than 200 years after the completion of the New Testament. It omits Genesis 23:19-24:46, Numbers 5:27-7:20, 1 Chronicles 9:27-19:17, all of Exodus, Joshua, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, Hosea, Amos, Micah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Judges. It contains New Testament Apocrypha.
C- "Codes Ephraemi:" written more than 300 years after the completion of the New Testament. It omits Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings and all of the major and minor prophets!
B -"Vaticanus:" It omits all off Genesis 1:1 - 46:28, all of Psalms 105:26-137:6, and parts of 1 Samuel, I Kings and Nehemiah. It contains the Apocrpha books of the Old Testament.

http://www.angelfire.com/la2/prophet1/sept.html

The oldest manuscripts of the LXX include 2nd century BCE fragments of Leviticus and Deuteronomy (Rahlfs nos. 801, 819, and 957), and 1st century BCE fragments of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and the Minor Prophets (Alfred Rahlfs nos. 802, 803, 805, 848, 942, and 943). Relatively complete manuscripts of the LXX postdate the Hexaplar rescension and include the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus of the 4th century and the Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century.

Last edited by Rick H; 12/06/11 10:41 AM.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Green Cochoa] #137923
12/06/11 11:17 AM
12/06/11 11:17 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Earlier, Rosangela was referencing the LXX

Not in this discussion, of course. In this discussion I have been focusing on the Textus Receptus, which has to do with the Greek New Testament.
As to the LXX, I think all should be aware that Paul quoted largely from it.

Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Green Cochoa] #137927
12/06/11 01:16 PM
12/06/11 01:16 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Just because it is different doesn't mean it's wrong or right. Just because our favorite verses may not really exist, doesn't mean leaving them out is wrong. What matters is whether it is correct, not whether it supports our belief system or not.


Going back to what I was saying earlier about fasting, as an example of some of the differences, take a look at the following table.

Yes, nice table format, but it was a total waste. You did exactly what I was arguing against. All you did was show it was different, but nothing about whether it was correct or not.

Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: kland] #137929
12/06/11 01:33 PM
12/06/11 01:33 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Quote:
He who is the father of lies, blinds and deceives the world by sending forth his angels to speak for the apostles, and to make it appear that they contradict what they wrote by the dictation of the Holy Ghost when on earth. These lying angels make the apostles to corrupt their own teachings and to declare them to be adulterated. By so doing, Satan delights to throw professed Christians and all the world into uncertainty about the Word of God. That holy Book cuts directly across his track and thwarts his plans; therefore he leads men to doubt the divine origin of the Bible. Then he sets up the infidel Thomas Paine, as if when he died he were ushered into heaven, and now, united with the holy apostles whom he hated on earth, were engaged in teaching the world. {EW 264.1}

Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Rosangela] #137930
12/06/11 02:29 PM
12/06/11 02:29 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Earlier, Rosangela was referencing the LXX

Not in this discussion, of course. In this discussion I have been focusing on the Textus Receptus, which has to do with the Greek New Testament.
As to the LXX, I think all should be aware that Paul quoted largely from it.


Where is your proof of that? What is to say he wasn't quoting from other scriptures?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: kland] #137932
12/06/11 02:33 PM
12/06/11 02:33 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
Yes, nice table format, but it was a total waste. You did exactly what I was arguing against. All you did was show it was different, but nothing about whether it was correct or not.


It may have been a waste in your case, then. But seeing the nature of the differences is somewhat self-explanatory as to which is more correct. However, it may be more obvious in another example, which I don't have time for just now. More later.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: kland] #137934
12/06/11 02:56 PM
12/06/11 02:56 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,245
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
He who is the father of lies, blinds and deceives the world by sending forth his angels to speak for the apostles, and to make it appear that they contradict what they wrote by the dictation of the Holy Ghost when on earth. These lying angels make the apostles to corrupt their own teachings and to declare them to be adulterated. By so doing, Satan delights to throw professed Christians and all the world into uncertainty about the Word of God. That holy Book cuts directly across his track and thwarts his plans; therefore he leads men to doubt the divine origin of the Bible. Then he sets up the infidel Thomas Paine, as if when he died he were ushered into heaven, and now, united with the holy apostles whom he hated on earth, were engaged in teaching the world. {EW 264.1}
I am not quiet sure what your trying to say, if as the facts show, the Alexandrian Codices are corruption we have the sure word in the Majority Text so there is no issue if you stay with that........

Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Rosangela] #137935
12/06/11 02:58 PM
12/06/11 02:58 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,245
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Earlier, Rosangela was referencing the LXX

Not in this discussion, of course. In this discussion I have been focusing on the Textus Receptus, which has to do with the Greek New Testament.
As to the LXX, I think all should be aware that Paul quoted largely from it.
As I said, I am not a KJV Only advocate, but from the facts we need to be aware and act accordingly... and the facts of the Textus Receptus speak for themselves, we have the Word of God safe in its text.........

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