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Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: kland] #138040
12/10/11 01:23 AM
12/10/11 01:23 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

4) Not one jot or one tittle is to pass from God's law, nor should any word be added to or subtracted therefrom.

I find the modern versions to be based upon EDITIONS of the manuscripts in which various persons have altered the text of the original, thinking to better it (and make it more favorable toward their doctrines). Such editions can no longer rightfully represent the Word of God. Those who use them may not recognize their danger, but the message has changed.
And so if we find that the KJV has any text altered by persons thinking it better or being helpful, we can also conclude that the KJV is not the "Word of God".

That's not what I said. If the "law" is altered, then it's no longer God's law might be closer. But even then, it would be more accurate to phrase the altered or "doctored" versions as "marred" and "non-representative" of the True.

Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
Is different worse? Certainly. If it "speaks not according to THIS Word it is because there is no light" in it.

So my faith is built upon the Bible. The Bible tells me how the Bible itself should be treated--that every word of God is important, and that no words should be inserted or removed from it. Based on that, I find the modern translations from Codex Alexandrinus, Codex Vaticanus, and Codex Sinaiticus to be "guilty as charged." smile
My faith is built upon the Bible, too. But which one should we use is the question. The KJV is different and does not speak "according THIS Word" so therefore it is "worse". The (insert other version) tells me how the Bible itself should be treated and no words should be inserted or removed. Since the KJV does have words inserted and removed, I know it is not the correct version.
Here is where the "other" versions fail, however. They do not respect "every word of God." Here's another table to illustrate:

King James VersionOther Versions
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. (Luke 4:4, KJV)

(Verse quoted by Jesus)
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. (Deuteronomy 8:3)
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone.’ ” (NIV)
And Jesus answered unto him, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone. (ASV)
And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE.’” (NASB)
And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone.'" (ESV)
But Jesus told him, “No! The Scriptures say, ‘People do not live by bread alone.’” (NLT)
Jesus answered by quoting Deuteronomy: "It takes more than bread to really live." (MSG)
Some versions are more flippant in their handling of the Word of God than others, but all of those shown on the right have omitted the “punchline” of the verse. They've left out the principal meaning. Sure, we're not to live by bread alone...upon what then? They leave the reader hanging, without the benefit of Christ's full message. They accept just a truncated version of His words, as if the rest of it weren't important anyway. The trouble is, the rest of it was the chiefest part!

If they have no respect for “every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God,” how should we expect them not to have innumerable other alterations?


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Green Cochoa] #138089
12/12/11 04:33 PM
12/12/11 04:33 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Green, the only way your tables make any sense is if you have the a priori premise that the KJV is "the Word of God", which is what is under discussion. I could take any other version and compare it the KJV showing how the KJV does not respect the word of God by straying from it.

I guess I'm one wanting facts, not someone's opinion, nor how their favorite verses (or beliefs!) would be harmed if their favorite version isn't considered "better". You have offered no facts to support the KJV being better. But I do give you credit for offering opinions and thoughts. Very enthusiastic and dedicated to it! That's more than can be said about me. I am not dedicated to nor support any version as being better. frown

Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: kland] #138096
12/12/11 09:14 PM
12/12/11 09:14 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Impressive! Nicely done, kland. thumbsup


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Green Cochoa] #138097
12/12/11 09:45 PM
12/12/11 09:45 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Here is where the "other" versions fail, however. They do not respect "every word of God." Here's another table to illustrate:

Actually, that table can be used, and it will be just as valid, to show that the KJV does not respect God's word because it adds to it.

What is your reference point, which DEFINES what is or is not God's word? Is it the autographs or certain manuscripts or the KJV? If it's the autographs, then none of us can be too dogmatic, since they don't exist. If it's the KJV, then it's circular reasoning to use the KJV to prove the KJV. If it's a question of manuscripts, which I believe it is, then the practice of comparing English versions with each other proves nothing.

I think the only way to really settle it is to figure out which manuscripts are most trustworthy. Then, we translate it in a way that preserves the thought the original writers were trying to convey.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: asygo] #138100
12/13/11 02:00 AM
12/13/11 02:00 AM
Rick H  Offline
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My basic premise is, that the Alexandrian Codices are nothing but a attempt to diminish the diety of Christ and bring in a gnostic viewpoint into play. When you consider the source and look at the evidence, then you must decide if the changes are significant enough to be theologically corrupt, or just a attempt at a better translation that failed, at least in transfering the meaning which was intended by the original authors.

Last edited by Rick H; 12/13/11 02:02 AM.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: asygo] #138101
12/13/11 04:03 AM
12/13/11 04:03 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Yes, Arnold, the root issue is one of manuscripts. I have brought that up several times, I believe.

All modern English versions are translated from the same source. It is not the source used for the KJV translation. The KJV translation came from the Textus Receptus--essentially the same as the Majority Text.

The Waldensees had Bibles which came from the Majority Text line of manuscripts. Mrs. White says their Bibles were of the pure form.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Waldenses were the first of all the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Scriptures. Hundreds of years before the Reformation, they possessed the entire Bible in manuscript in their native tongue. They had the truth unadulterated, and this rendered them the special objects of hatred and persecution. They declared the Church of Rome to be the apostate Babylon of the Apocalypse, and at the peril of their lives they stood up to resist her corruptions. While, under the pressure of long-continued persecution, some compromised their faith, little by little yielding its distinctive principles, others held fast the truth. Through ages of darkness and apostasy, there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath. Under the fiercest tempests of opposition they maintained their faith. Though gashed by the Savoyard spear, and scorched by the Romish fagot, they stood unflinchingly for God's word and his honor. They would not yield one iota of the truth. {4SP 70.1}

Consider the following as well...
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Lord has pronounced a curse upon those who take from or add to the Scriptures. The great I AM has decided what shall constitute the rule of faith and doctrine, and he has designed that the Bible shall be a household book. The church that holds to the word of God is irreconcilably separated from Rome. Protestants were once thus apart from this great church of apostasy, but they have approached more nearly to her, and are still in the path of reconciliation to the Church of Rome. Rome never changes. Her principles have not altered in the least. She has not lessened the breach between herself and Protestants; they have done all the advancing. But what does this argue for the Protestantism of this day? It is the rejection of Bible truth which makes men approach to infidelity. It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}

So, Bibles which have been influenced by the above-mentioned entities should be struck from our list as unreliable and unsafe. Conversely, the Bible of the Waldensians is commended by Mrs. White. Their Bible was of the Majority Text. So is the King James Version.

The NIV, NASB, NLT, ESV, RV, NRSV, etc. were translated, not from the Majority Text, but from the Alexandrian Text, i.e. Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. These names should speak for themselves.

Folks, these things are facts.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Green Cochoa] #138103
12/13/11 04:18 AM
12/13/11 04:18 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Now we're getting somewhere.

Assuming we accept EGW's statement, which is a pretty safe assumption around here, what proof do you have for the statement below?

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The Waldensees had Bibles which came from the Majority Text line of manuscripts.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: asygo] #138104
12/13/11 03:29 PM
12/13/11 03:29 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Assuming we accept EGW's statement, which is a pretty safe assumption around here,
And I'd have question as to exactly what her statement is, because I don't see it as Green is concluding....

Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: kland] #138115
12/13/11 08:09 PM
12/13/11 08:09 PM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
And I'd have question as to exactly what her statement is, because I don't see it as Green is concluding....

This would be the statement:
Quote:
The Waldenses were the first of all the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Scriptures. Hundreds of years before the Reformation, they possessed the entire Bible in manuscript in their native tongue. They had the truth unadulterated, and this rendered them the special objects of hatred and persecution. {4SP 70.1}

So, if the Waldenses had the truth unadulterated, the context would seem to point to their Bible as the source of this truth.

But since it was the Bible in their language, we would have to find out what Hebrew/Greek manuscripts they used for their translation. Since this was hundreds of years before the Reformation, the manuscripts could not have been the Textus Receptus, since Erasmus did not publish his Greek New Testament until the 1500's.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: kland] #138116
12/13/11 08:14 PM
12/13/11 08:14 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Assuming we accept EGW's statement, which is a pretty safe assumption around here,
And I'd have question as to exactly what her statement is, because I don't see it as Green is concluding....

kland,

I'll answer your question first, as I think I see where you may be coming from. It is true that the EGW statement I quoted regarding the Waldensians may be a matter of interpretation. I feel some of the following statements may help us in that process as we understand better where Mrs. White was coming from in addressing the various lines of the scriptures.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
There are men who profess to open the Scriptures to others, and who claim to be ministers of the gospel, who yet place stumbling-blocks in the way of those who are seeking for safe paths. But let the sincere seeker for truth look to the Author of truth, and not to the would-be instructor who knows not the way of light. Go to the Fountain of knowledge, and become acquainted with what saith the Scriptures, and take no mortal man's inferences and assertions. The fallacies of men have in them no power to sanctify the soul; and the word of God is not to be adulterated with the customs and traditions of the world. "To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." "And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." {ST, October 15, 1894 par. 2}
The next verse opens with this warning: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world." ... {ST, October 15, 1894 par. 3}

And regarding some of the alterations, she writes:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The use of images by the Roman Catholic Church is antichristian. Those who worship them are commandment-breakers. Image worship is contrary to God's positive commands. The second commandment is entirely opposed to such practices. But the popes have tampered with the commandments. In all the books of devotion given to the people the second commandment is omitted. The third they call the second, the fourth the third; and the tenth they have divided into two. Thus in the place of conforming their practices to God's commands, they have altered His commandments to harmonize with their practices. To suit their worship they have taken away from and added to God's Word. {2SAT 182.4}


So Mrs. White clearly saw that the RC church had altered God's Word. She refers to such an altered Bible as "adulterated." For the Waldensians to have a Bible which was "unadulterated" meant for them to have one without the RC edits. She draws attention to this fact in saying of the Waldensians:
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
They had the truth unadulterated, and this rendered them the special objects of hatred and persecution. They declared the Church of Rome to be the apostate Babylon of the Apocalypse, and at the peril of their lives they stood up to resist her corruptions.


The church of Rome had corrupted the Bible, and they wanted everyone to have only their version of it. When the Waldenses were the last holdout with the unaltered Bible, Rome was especially moved against them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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