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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14070
06/21/05 05:31 PM
06/21/05 05:31 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
But it's equally as sad when people believe they are forgiven when they have no right to it. It's amazing to me that they seem to be able to experience the joy of forgiveness as if they are truly forgiven. What's up with that?
Who has right to forgiveness? There is none that have a right to forgiveness ever.
Everyone may fall at the mercy of the giver and plead for forgiveness.

Forgiveness is not something to believe about, it is something to receive.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14071
06/21/05 05:38 PM
06/21/05 05:38 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
There's two sides to forgiveness. One side is God's side. From that side, all are forgiven. The evidence of that is that we are alive when we should be dead. So any joy we have whatsoever we owe to the sacrifice of Christ, whether we are aware of that fact or acknolwedge it. So to answer MM's question of "what's up with that?" the answer is the cross. Some are using the benefits of the cross as the prodigal son, experiencing its benefits without the accompanying gratitude which is due, or any thought of the father at all.

The other side of forgiveness is the personal side. That side requires belief to be experienced.

A further comment is that people may appear outwardly to be happy when inside there's still doubt and anxiety. The way of the transgressor is hard.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14072
06/21/05 06:12 PM
06/21/05 06:12 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
While God has mercy towards all and has forgiven all; none have a right to forgiveness, and never will.

Forgiveness cannot be obtained through demand of “my right”. It is only obtainable by pleading for mercy.

“Forgiveness” cannot be had without receiving the spirit of “mercy”.

Against such there is no law. No Law - means "no right".

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14073
06/21/05 09:09 PM
06/21/05 09:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thank you, Tom. That makes sense.

John, I didn't mean to use the word "right" in the same sense you are objecting to. Sister White talks about our title and fitness for heaven, and I meant the title part of it.

FLB 116
The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven. {FLB 116.2}

DA 300
The proud heart strives to earn salvation; but both our title to heaven and our fitness for it are found in the righteousness of Christ. The Lord can do nothing toward the recovery of man until, convinced of his own weakness, and stripped of all self-sufficiency, he yields himself to the control of God. Then he can receive the gift that God is waiting to bestow. From the soul that feels his need, nothing is withheld. He has unrestricted access to Him in whom all fullness dwells. "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones." Isa. 57:15. {DA 300.1}

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14074
06/21/05 10:37 PM
06/21/05 10:37 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
I do not know then, how it would be that there is anyone who would not be entitled to fall at the mercy of the giver and plead forgiveness.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14075
06/24/05 04:51 PM
06/24/05 04:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Good point. Everyone is entitled to ask for forgiveness. However, "many are called, but few are chosen." Why?

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14076
06/24/05 05:16 PM
06/24/05 05:16 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Because there are many that justify themselves, religiously or otherwise, and refuse to respond to the call of mercy.

1) They are afraid of falling at the mercy of the giver and plead forgiveness because they do not know him or his mercy. So they do not respond to the call.

2) Many ask forgiveness religiously daily; but keep throwing it away, as soon as they get up from their knees, by condemning their fellow. So they miss out on being chosen.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14077
06/25/05 10:06 AM
06/25/05 10:06 AM
Ikan  Offline
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
Amen, John B.

Several of the Lord's best parables are about acting like the Lord in reality or in religious pretense.

God cannot forgive those who do not forgive. He cannot teach those who wish to be the teacher; He cannot enlighten those who "have need of nothing".
There's no "room in the inn" for Jesus.

It all is encapsulated for the Adventist in the God's message to modern Laodiceans.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14078
07/03/05 02:57 AM
07/03/05 02:57 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
How does the following insight fit into this discussion? Is it possible to repent in such a way that God cannot grant us forgiveness?

2 Corinthians
7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14079
07/03/05 12:16 PM
07/03/05 12:16 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Godly sorrow has God for its reference point, while worldly sorrow has self for its reference point.

What does that mean?

Godly sorrow sees the truth as it is in Jesus. It sees God’s goodness and forgiveness, and in his light realizes its own wretchedness; for it is the goodness of God that leads you to repentance, thus it brings forth repentance to salvation.

Worldly sorrow sees the ‘truth’ as it is in self. It sees the offence and condemnation of sin, which works mortification, and death.

God is still the same, his character, forgiveness and goodness are not changed, but worldly sorrow does not see him. It is not that God cannot grant forgiveness, the scriptures say the ‘gift of God’ is eternal life; but it is that such do not look to him, do not see him. All they see is sin and the condemnation of its wages in the light of their own justice which they transpose on God.

Thus God has put forth such great effort that love can do, and given us his son, suffering us to crucify him; that he might break through the darkness of sin with his spirit of grace, mercy and forgiveness, so that he might save us from our own righteousness; the justice of sin, which works death.

P.S. (“Righteousness” is not the heap of works of merit we have accumulated over time. “Righteousness” is the precepts, standards, values and principles through which we perceive and judge). Yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. Here is an example of how righteousness in the mind of the sinner (religious) has been transposed and imposed upon God, so that he thinks it is God’s righteousness (Gods principles, precepts, standards, values), while it has nothing to do with God. We may think this to be an extreme, but the same principle applies in any ‘righteousness’ which does not yield the “fruit of the spirit”. Such ‘righteousness’ is not of his spirit.

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