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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14080
07/03/05 03:48 PM
07/03/05 03:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Can Jesus take to heaven believers who think they are fulfilling the will of God? who think they are following Jesus? who think they are obeying the law?

Matthew
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14081
07/03/05 06:11 PM
07/03/05 06:11 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
What is the reference of your question MM?

I believe it has already been answered many times, so I do not know what you are asking.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14082
07/03/05 06:13 PM
07/03/05 06:13 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Or otherwise, are you agreeing with my post above with the scriptures you quoted?

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14083
07/03/05 07:26 PM
07/03/05 07:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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What are the criteria that God uses to determine who is "counted worthy" (2 Thes. 1:5) of eternal life? The people referred to in Matthew 7 (quoted above) were surprised Jesus wasn't taking them to heaven. They really wanted to be in heaven, but Jesus isn't taking them. Why?

2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14084
07/03/05 09:20 PM
07/03/05 09:20 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
MM, does this have any meaning to you or reference with your question?

Godly sorrow has God for its reference point, while worldly sorrow has self for its reference point.

What does that mean?

Godly sorrow sees the truth as it is in Jesus. It sees God’s goodness and forgiveness, and in his light realizes its own wretchedness; for it is the goodness of God that leads you to repentance, thus it brings forth repentance to salvation.

Worldly sorrow sees the ‘truth’ as it is in self. It sees the offence and condemnation of sin, which works mortification, and death.

God is still the same, his character, forgiveness and goodness are not changed, but worldly sorrow does not see him. It is not that God cannot grant forgiveness, the scriptures say the ‘gift of God’ is eternal life; but it is that such do not look to him, do not see him. All they see is sin and the condemnation of its wages in the light of their own justice which they transpose on God.

Thus God has put forth such great effort that love can do, and given us his son, suffering us to crucify him; that he might break through the darkness of sin with his spirit of grace, mercy and forgiveness, so that he might save us from our own righteousness; the justice of sin, which works death.

P.S. (“Righteousness” is not the heap of works of merit we have accumulated over time. “Righteousness” is the precepts, standards, values and principles through which we perceive and judge). Yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. Here is an example of how righteousness in the mind of the sinner (religious) has been transposed and imposed upon God, so that he thinks it is God’s righteousness (Gods principles, precepts, standards, values), while it has nothing to do with God. We may think this to be an extreme, but the same principle applies in any ‘righteousness’ which does not yield the “fruit of the spirit”. Such ‘righteousness’ is not of his spirit.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14085
07/03/05 09:35 PM
07/03/05 09:35 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
MM: What are the criteria that God uses to determine who is "counted worthy" (2 Thes. 1:5) of eternal life?
I think I am getting the gist of your question.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The problem is that those who did not enter into the joy of the Lord; did not do so because they asked your question above, and tried to prove them selves worthy instead of letting him into their lives, so that he could save them from the condemnation of sin.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14086
07/03/05 09:57 PM
07/03/05 09:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
At what point can we believe we are saved? How can we be sure we are not self-deceived? King David killed lots of people. The people who kill others thinking they are doing God's will (John 16:2) - how are they different than David?

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14087
07/05/05 04:11 AM
07/05/05 04:11 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
To answer the question at what point we can know we are saved, you would have to define carefully what you mean by "saved." The Spirit of Prophesy tells us we should never claim to be saved, so using her definition of the term, the answer would be we wouldn't.

Regarding the doctrine of assurance in general, the answer is our assurance is grounded on our knowledge of God. It is only as we know Him as He is in truth that we can have peace. When we believe that God is as He has revealed Himself to be in Christ -- that is, that when we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father -- then we will have assurance.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14088
07/05/05 10:30 PM
07/05/05 10:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
David felt he was saved, and yet he killed a whole bunch of people - apparently on order from God to do so. The people in John 16:2 who kill people because they believe it is God's will, well, how are they any different than David?

Also, the following text makes it clear that we may know we are saved. How do we reconcile this with Sister White's insight regarding not claiming to be saved?

1 John
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14089
07/06/05 01:38 AM
07/06/05 01:38 AM
Ikan  Offline
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
Would you kill someone if you think God told you to, MM?

Choose yes or no, then explain, please.

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