MM: Also, the following text makes it clear that we may know we are saved.

Tom: It makes it clear we have eternal life, not that we are saved.

MM: How do we reconcile this with Sister White's insight regarding not claiming to be saved?

Tom: Having eternal life does not equal being saved.

I made the point that you would have to clarify what you mean by "saved" to answer your question, which you didn't do, but you provided a hint by saying that you think the text in 1 John tells us we can know we are saved. It's clear that you are using the term "saved" in a differnt way than Sister White was (which is fine; it's a term than can be used in many different ways). She was speaking of it in terms of "once saved, always saved."

If having eternal life does not equate being saved, then the mainstream churches are right about the soul and adventism wrong about soulsleap. If one can have/has eternal life without being saved, a neverending hell suddenly seems plausible.

/Thomas

Sorry, Thomas, I'm not following your logic. When Ellen White says we should not say or feel that we are saved, she is speaking in the context of once saved always saved. There's no doubt we can know we have eternal life. But we do not believe, like many Baptists do, for example, that one cannot lose one's salvation.

So she does make a distinction in how she uses the terms "saved" and having eternal life. This is why I asked MM to define his terms. Different people mean different things by the term "saved".

Tom, I seem to recall Sister White's remark regarding saying we're saved was in the context of the holy flesh movement. People were claiming to be sinless and saved who had no right to such claims. Of course, we cannot know past right now whether or not we'll be saved tomorrow. We must continually choose to be saved moment by moment. By using the word "saved" I mean we would be taken to heaven if Jesus were to return now, which, of course, implies everything we've talked about concerning sin and salvation.

1SM 315
If we are disobedient, our characters are out of harmony with God's moral rule of government, and it is stating a falsehood to say, "I am saved." No one is saved who is a transgressor of the law of God, which is the foundation of His government in heaven and in earth. {1SM 315.1}

FW 71
By living faith, by earnest prayer to God, and depending upon Jesus' merits, we are clothed with His righteousness, and we are saved. "Oh, yes," some say, "we are saved in doing nothing. In fact, I am saved. I need not keep the law of God. I am saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ." Christ came to our world to bring all men back to allegiance to God. To take the position that you can break God's law, for Christ has done it all, is a position of death, for you are as verily a transgressor as anyone. {FW 71.2}

FW 121
There are many who claim that they have been sanctified to God, and yet when the great standard of righteousness is presented to them they become greatly excited and manifest a spirit which proves that they know nothing of what it means to be sanctified. They have not the mind of Christ; for those who are truly sanctified will reverence and obey the Word of God as fast as it is opened to them, and they will express a strong desire to know what is truth on every point of doctrine. An exultant feeling is no evidence of sanctification. The assertion, "I am saved, I am saved," does not prove that the soul is saved or sanctified. {FW 121.1}

MAR 236
Peter's fall was not instantaneous, but gradual. Self-confidence led him to the belief that he was saved, and step after step was taken in the downward path, until he could deny his Master. Never can we safely put confidence in self or feel, this side of heaven, that we are secure against temptation. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. This is misleading. Every one should be taught to cherish hope and faith; but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us, we are not beyond the reach of temptation. . . . Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life (James 1:12). {Mar 236.1}

Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. . . . We are admonished, "Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor. 10:12). Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ. {Mar 236.2}

There are many who profess Christ, but who never become mature Christians. They admit that man is fallen, that his faculties are weakened, that he is unfitted for moral achievement, but they say that Christ has borne all the burden, all the suffering, all the self-denial, and they are willing to let Him bear it. They say that there is nothing for them to do but to believe; but Christ said, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matt. 16:24). . . . {Mar 236.3}

We are never to rest in a satisfied condition, and cease to make advancement, saying, "I am saved." When this idea is entertained, the motives for watchfulness, for prayer, for earnest endeavor to press onward to higher attainments, cease to exist. No sanctified tongue will be found uttering these words till Christ shall come, and we enter in through the gates into the city of God. Then, with the utmost propriety, we may give glory to God and to the Lamb for eternal deliverance. {Mar 236.4}

UL 120
[During the] hours of the night, while others are sleeping, I am praying that the responsible work committed to my trust may be so unselfishly and faithfully done that God will approve. The anxiety is not with me what others may think or what others may do, but What shall I do to glorify God? and Will my work bear the inspection of God? Is every high look removed from me? Is my heart in harmony with Jesus, the humble Man of Calvary? I am weeping and praying and working, trying my motives and feelings in the light of eternity, and if I am saved at last, it will be through the matchless love of my Redeemer. {UL 120.2}

I don't know what MAR is, but those MAR quotes are what's in COL.

God wants us to have peace, and we can only have peace by knowing that we are right with Him. This is the assurance of having eternal life, which John speaks of.

John points out that eternal life is knowing God (John 17:3, which is actually quoting Christ). The only way to know God is by faith in Christ. If we have faith in Christ, God sends us the Holy Spirit to bear witness to our spirit that we are sons of God. So we can know we are members of the family of God, and have been born again.

However, there are dangers in dwelling on our condition, whether we call it being saved, or whatever, as the race isn't over until one reaches the finish line. Paul talks about that, and EGW as well. Looking at self is depressing anyway.

However, the more we look at Christ, the better we perceive the goodness of God, which leads us to an ever-deepening repentance; the less concerned we become with self, and the more with Christ.

We need more of Him, and less of self, which is what will bring us peace and assurance.

Amen! "More about Jesus I would know ..." However, how do we reconcile Paul's counsel to the Corinthians?

2 Corinthians
13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

HP 131
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith" (2 Cor. 13:5). Some conscientious souls, on reading this, immediately begin to criticize their every feeling and emotion. But this is not correct self-examination. It is not the petty feelings and emotions that are to be examined. The life, the character, is to be measured by the only standard of character, God's holy law. The fruit testifies to the character of the tree. Our works, not our feelings, bear witness of us. {HP 131.2}

OHC 336
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith." Many . . . may immediately respond, "Why, yes; I am in the faith, I believe every point of the truth." But do you practice what you believe? Are you at peace with God and with your brethren? Can you pray with sincerity, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors"? ... Is there no bitterness in your hearts, no envying, no jealousy, no evil surmising? ... Is there no emulation, no desire for special favor and honors, no wish to have the supremacy? . . . {OHC 336.2}

We do well to examine ourselves to see what manner of spirit we are cherishing. Let us learn to speak gently, quietly, even under circumstances the most trying. Let us control not only our words, but our thoughts and imaginations. Let us be kind, be courteous. {OHC 336.3}

Many are sensible of their great deficiency, and they read, and pray, and resolve, and yet make no progress. They seem to be powerless to resist temptation. The reason is, they do not go deep enough. They do not seek for a thorough conversion of the soul, that the streams which issue from it may be pure, and the deportment may testify that Christ reigns within. All defects of character originate in the heart. Pride, vanity, evil temper, and covetousness proceed from the carnal heart unrenewed by the grace of Christ. If the heart is refined, softened, and ennobled, the words and actions will testify to the fact. When the soul has been entirely surrendered to God, there will be a firm reliance upon His promises, and earnest prayer and determined effort to control the words and actions. {OHC 336.4}

I think we reconcile this by understanding that it is God alone who knows the heart, and we can trust in Him who is infinitely kind, gracious and sympathetic to treat us in accordance with His character (that is, kindly, graciously, and sympathetically).

I think the following quote brings out the principles well:

quote:

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All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. (Desire of Ages, p. 668)

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