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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14120
07/09/05 04:44 PM
07/09/05 04:44 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Jesus saves, not grace. Grace is many things, of course, but when talking about salvation grace is the power of God that empowers born again believers to imitate the sinless example of Jesus, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. It is the power of God unto obedience, to do those that are pleasing to God. It enables us to partake of the divine nature, to partake of His holiness.

Romans
1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Hebrews
12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14121
07/09/05 11:00 PM
07/09/05 11:00 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
If grace is seen as contention or in competition with Christ, I think there is a false perception of grace or Christ.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

And, I do not see any light in “imitating” Christ. The problem is real; the solution has to be real. There is no place for imitation in salvation or in a born-again life. It is genuine.

Imitation reminds me of certain sons of Sceva.

Act 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
Act 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
Act 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Act 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14122
07/10/05 04:07 AM
07/10/05 04:07 AM
Ikan  Offline
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
Is grace an element on the periodic table to you, MM? You call it a thing: the sin disease is the antithesis of grace, if one has eyes to see. One is the power of God; the other is the power of Satan.
One is either a child of God or a child of Satan. There is no neutral ground, even though "imitations" abound...

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14123
07/10/05 04:45 PM
07/10/05 04:45 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
the sin disease is the antithesis of grace
So true and important to realize.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14124
07/10/05 11:27 PM
07/10/05 11:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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You guys sure are having fun with the word "imitate", aren't you? "Jesus is a perfect pattern, and we must imitate His example." Ev 641. No, grace isn't, like honey, an element. Rather, it is the power of God unto obedience in those who imitate the example of Jesus, an experience which is as sweet as honey.

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14125
07/11/05 01:55 AM
07/11/05 01:55 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
You guys sure are having fun with the word "imitate", aren't you?
No, I think it is a sad and desperate situation. Forever trying to achieve the perfect, which you never can attain to, and yet will be judged by. Imitation is always a self-generated activity. It has nothing to do with obedience. There is no salvation in that.

Obedience has no element of imitation; it is always genuine.

What do you think about grace being the antithesis of sin?

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14126
07/11/05 03:48 AM
07/11/05 03:48 AM
Ikan  Offline
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
MM You've side-stepped (again) the point of my post:

Grace is not an element, neither is the sin-disease, nor is love or hate, or any such spiritual matters. Yet the Word and SOP treats them as realities, often as "disease" making one have a stony heart, deaf ears or blind eyes.
Elsewhere you asserted that sin was not on the "periodic table", thus claiming that is a action only, the breaking of the Law.

Will you address this?

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14127
07/11/05 04:01 AM
07/11/05 04:01 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Both grace and sin can be represented as powers. But what is this power, if not a power of the mind? If sin leads to wrong thinking, then grace must lead to right thinking.

Power to obey comes from right thinking, which must begin in perceiving the truth about God. Grace is God treating people not as they deserve, but according to His own graciousness. Grace cannot be separated from this worderful aspect of God's character, to treat others not as they deserve (man's justice) by according to His forgiveness (God's justice).

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14128
07/12/05 02:08 AM
07/12/05 02:08 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
John, surely you must realize that the words “imitate” and “imitation” do not mean the same thing in the context of the SOP quotes I’ve posted here and elsewhere? Imitating Christ is Christlikeness. Also, moral perfection, or sinlessness, is not an impossible goal in this lifetime. It is the goal. I believe righteousness is the antithesis (opposite) of sin. Grace is the means by which God supplies the power to make us righteous, to resist sin, self, and Satan.

Phil, sin is not a substance that you can place under a microscope, nor is grace, gravity, love, hate, etc. “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Heb 11:1. In the same way faith becomes a “substance”, when we exercise it, so too, when grace is manifested in our lives it becomes, as it were, a substance. We are the medium, the substance, by which such intangibles things as faith and grace and sin become tangible. Sin is more than a physical action, we also sin in thought and word.

Tom, the power of sin is Satan and sinful nature. The power to think and do right comes from grace. Our faculties of mind and body is medium that enables us to experience sin and grace, right and wrong. Grace is the power of God that empowers us to be holy and righteous. But the word “grace” can also mean gracious. God demonstrated His graciousness by giving His only begotten Son to live and die for us, and He also demonstrates it by forgiving our sins and granting us grace to obey.

HP 146
Everyone who believes on Christ, everyone who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, everyone who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies [imitates] the pattern given in the Christ life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}

Re: Salvation of the wicked !!! #14129
07/11/05 06:11 PM
07/11/05 06:11 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Grace is the power of God that empowers us to be holy and righteous.
I agree with this statement, but would ask for clarification as to what it actually means. I will state what I think it means.

God's grace is the manifestation of His graciousness. His grace cannot be separated from His character. When we behold the beauty of His character as revealed in Jesus Christ -- that is, when we perceive His graciousness, His kindness, His compassion, forgiveness and love; His treating us not as we deserved, but according to His own lovingkindness -- that mercy melts our hearts and motivates us to live for Him who died for us. As Paul puts it:

quote:
4For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. (2 Cor. 5:14, 15)
I think we should clarify what it means to speak of grace as power, lest it be understood to be something like vitamins which we take.

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