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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14140
07/15/05 12:39 AM
07/15/05 12:39 AM
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Since it is the holy virtues of God that compel and empower us to be Christlike, why are we told to partake of the divine nature? What role does it play in our salvation?
Well, I guess here really the answer is dictated by what the problem is. No? If the sin problem is just what we have done, then maybe we need divine “power” to do things.
But if the sin problem is what we are (heart-spirit), then we need his “divine nature” (heart-spirit); so that we may have a new heart and his spirit.
What is the old heart? What kind of spirit is the old spirit?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14141
07/15/05 03:08 PM
07/15/05 03:08 PM
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Tom, are you implying, then, that we must partake of the divine nature in order to experience the miracle of rebirth? Can we walk in the mind of the old man and, at the same time, partake of the divine nature?
John, sin and sinful nature are separate things, right? As I understand it, sin is the transgression of the law, either in thought, word, or deed. And sinful nature is that part of our human makeup that tempts us to sin, that wants us to experience our innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in a sinful way. As such, sinning and possessing a sinful nature cannot be one and the same thing, right?
So, wouldn't the same be true of sin and sinning? Sinning is a state of doing, but it doesn’t make sense, at least to me, to conclude, based on this insight, that sin is also a state of being. To put it another way, I am not a sin, as if sin is a person or place, rather I am a sinner because I have sinned. As a noun, sin is a thing, but not a person or place.
To cease sinning, we must be born again, we must walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, and we must partake of the divine nature. It is the divine nature that empowers us to use our same old faculties of mind and body to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan unto the glory and honor of God. It is the same action (partaking of the divine nature) that enables us to grow in grace, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.
COL 98, 99
The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14142
07/15/05 07:17 PM
07/15/05 07:17 PM
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OP
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quote:
John, sin and sinful nature are separate things, right? As I understand it, sin is the transgression of the law, either in thought, word, or deed. And sinful nature is that part of our human makeup that tempts us to sin, that wants us to experience our innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in a sinful way. As such, sinning and possessing a sinful nature cannot be one and the same thing, right?
In order for me to understand what you mean MM, please repost the above paragraph and replace "nature" with "flesh" or "heart-spirit" as you mean it. Depending on these your statement means quite different things.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14143
07/15/05 10:13 PM
07/15/05 10:13 PM
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quote:
John, sin and sinful nature are separate things, right? As I understand it, sin is the transgression of the law, either in thought, word, or deed. And sinful nature is that part of our human makeup that tempts us to sin, that wants us to experience our innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in a sinful way. As such, sinning and possessing a sinful nature cannot be one and the same thing, right?
What word or name or title do you use to refer to that part of our human makeup that tempts us to sin, that wants us to experience our innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in a sinful way? Can we use the words used in the Bile and the SOP?
AH 127
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. {AH 127.2}
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14144
07/16/05 01:05 AM
07/16/05 01:05 AM
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OP
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MM, it is your thought I am trying to understand. Since we had already defined the different meanings in the topic “born sinning or born sinners”. I thought you would know which aspect you are referring to or both. quote:
Sinful nature is that part of our human makeup that tempts us to sin, that wants us to experience our innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in a sinful way
What is “that part” that you are speaking of? Is it an unknown?
Your particular EW quote speaks of “sinful flesh”. Is that what you have in mind?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14145
07/16/05 01:08 AM
07/16/05 01:08 AM
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OP
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Ontario
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quote:
Can we use the words used in the Bible and the SOP?
MM, “sinful nature” is not mentioned in the scriptures, if it were it would be easy reference for definition. As mentioned in the topic “born sinning or born sinners” we can have a reference point for the meaning of “nature” from “divine nature”. But this has not been perceived here yet.
EW use of “sinful nature”, lacks definition, and as such is not helpful.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14146
07/16/05 05:01 AM
07/16/05 05:01 AM
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I see no difference between sinful flesh and sinful nature. Both expressions refer to that part of our human makeup that generates and communicates unholy thoughts and feelings, that part of us that tempts us to fulfill our legitimate needs in a sinful way. For example, we are tempted to over eat, to eat the wrong things, to puff up with pride, to covet the neighbors boat, etc.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14147
07/16/05 09:38 PM
07/16/05 09:38 PM
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OP
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quote:
I see no difference between sinful flesh and sinful nature. Both expressions refer to that part of our human makeup that generates and communicates unholy thoughts and feelings, that part of us that tempts us to fulfill our legitimate needs in a sinful way. For example, we are tempted to over eat, to eat the wrong things, to puff up with pride, to covet the neighbor’s boat, etc.
Since you have not defined “that part”, I take it that you are unclear in the matter as to what “that part” is.
‘Sinful flesh’ is easy, simply put, inherited and cultivated tendencies residing in the body. It is our physical condition or circumstance. This part is a non-issue in salvation. This will be dealt with at resurrection or translation. God can zap this physical change without any effort.
‘Sinful heart-spirit' on the other hand, would be the chosen and cultivated tendencies, position, principles, and values residing in the spirit. This is the problem; the disease; the sin master.
The reason why this is more difficult to discern is because in the sinner, the spirit is subject to the flesh (producing the carnal mind), and so the two appear as one. Nevertheless the difference is vital and the division must occur if one will be saved.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14148
07/16/05 09:43 PM
07/16/05 09:43 PM
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OP
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Posts: 1,196
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quote:
John, sin and sinful nature are separate things, right? As I understand it, sin is the transgression of the law, either in thought, word, or deed. And sinful nature is that part of our human makeup that tempts us to sin, that wants us to experience our innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in a sinful way. As such, sinning and possessing a sinful nature cannot be one and the same thing, right?
Sin and sinful flesh are separate things. While we may be tempted to sin through the flesh, the flesh does not commit sin, we do. We are not accountable for the sinful flesh, nor are we required to obey it.
Sin and sinful heart-spirit on the other hand are both sin. And we are accountable for both. One is the action verb; the other is the “state of being” verb. This is the problem; the disease; the sin master.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#14149
07/16/05 10:49 PM
07/16/05 10:49 PM
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Thank you for the clarification of terms. What you call sinful flesh is what I call sinful flesh or sinful nature.
What you call sinful heart-spirit is what I call the mind of the old man. I like to use the term old man because it is what Paul uses in the KJV. What you call a sin state of being is what I call a sinful state of being.
Okay, where do we go from here? At point in our Christian experience can expect God to set us free? Do we gradually outgrow our sinful habits after a lifetime of sinning and repenting less and less, as some seem to believe?
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