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Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144389
08/04/12 10:07 PM
08/04/12 10:07 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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More biblical support of Jesus admonishing us to live sinless lives, before entrance to heaven.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.”

On this point most people look at this in the wrong way. Jesus was not saying for Mary or the blind man to go out and in their own strength try to not sin. He was in every sense of the matter speaking the power to overcome sin in their lives into existence.

The words of Jesus have creative power, they have the power to create, to recreate, and to sustain things in their paths without His direct attention.

So when Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) He was in no wise saying we should do this in our own strength, but was speaking the power to do so into existence for each of us. Our duty is not to fight against His reproof and admonishment but to submit to His counsel and authority.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144391
08/04/12 10:37 PM
08/04/12 10:37 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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They were compelled to strive with all their God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus. Daily they prayed for fresh supplies of grace, that they might reach higher and still higher toward perfection. Under the Holy Spirit’s working even the weakest, by exercising faith in God, learned to improve their entrusted powers and to become sanctified, refined, and ennobled. As in humility they submitted to the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, they received of the fullness of the Godhead and were fashioned in the likeness of the divine. {AA 49.3}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144399
08/05/12 01:15 AM
08/05/12 01:15 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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JSOT,

When James Saptenno refers to a "prerequisite for heaven," I understand he is referring to what EGW calls "our title to heaven." Of course the Bible is clear that "without sanctification no one will see the Lord."

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Rosangela] #144401
08/05/12 08:14 AM
08/05/12 08:14 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Strive for holiness, yes, but not as a prerequisite for heaven otherwise grace is no more grace.

James, it's not a prerequisite for heaven. Ellen White never said that. It's the evidence that heaven is in your heart. And yes, the moment the thief on the cross was justified and born again, his life, which consisted of just a few hours, was different.


Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Yes, a sinless, perfect character is a prerequisite to enter eternal life. Otherwise Adam wouldn't have been expelled from Eden.
And yes, if we still don't have a perfect character, we inherit eternal life through the perfect character of Christ, which covers ours. But if we have been saved, we will strive each day to live more and more in harmony with God's will, to have a character more and more like Christ's character. Otherwise we haven't been saved. This is what both the Bible and Ellen White say.

1Ts 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification

Heb 12:14 Strive ... for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.


Yes, a sinless, perfect character is a prerequisite to enter eternal life vs holiness is not a prerequisite for heaven.

Are they not the same? Holiness (without which no one can see the Father)- sinless perfect character, without which no one qualified for heaven (to see the Father).

But according to Angela, one is a prerequisite and the other one is not.

How about this?
Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

When eternal life from a gift becoming a reward and freely given based on faith is added with a prerequisite status a believer must achieve in his life which is a perfect sinless character?

Whatever labor needed to achieve a life status as you said (sinless perfect character or holiness) which is a prerequisite to enter heaven, to see the Father because it is a reward for your hard work of self denying, it is no longer a GIFT, but indeed a reward of works even though it is a joint operation works of the Spirit and your own will. And that view is not of the Bible.

That's why so many people accusing us teaching grace + work.

And on what base is there a discrimination between the thief on the cross and all other believers, as you have mentioned?

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144402
08/05/12 08:22 AM
08/05/12 08:22 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Posts: 1,157
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
More biblical support of Jesus admonishing us to live sinless lives, before entrance to heaven.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.”

On this point most people look at this in the wrong way. Jesus was not saying for Mary or the blind man to go out and in their own strength try to not sin. He was in every sense of the matter speaking the power to overcome sin in their lives into existence.

The words of Jesus have creative power, they have the power to create, to recreate, and to sustain things in their paths without His direct attention.

So when Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) He was in no wise saying we should do this in our own strength, but was speaking the power to do so into existence for each of us. Our duty is not to fight against His reproof and admonishment but to submit to His counsel and authority.


Yes, sure! Sin no more! Jesus has a solid ground to say that, otherwise he is not Jesus. But he never said that to sin no more is a prerequisite to enter heaven and live eternally.

What he said is more as an advice to any believer, for he knew that sinner under 6,000 years dominion of sin has a very strong tendency toward sin, as the sin is in them and dominated them, and for this He has paid our sins, not for us to strive for not to sin as a prerequisite to enter heaven and live eternally, but to justify sinner who believe Him. The thief on the cross is the great example.

Who gave the right to built a discrimination on what happen with the thief will not happen with us?

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144403
08/05/12 08:30 AM
08/05/12 08:30 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

As long there is not a word about sinless perfect character as a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven and live eternally, I have no objection.


Originally Posted By: Rosangelina
James, it's not a prerequisite for heaven. Ellen White never said that.


Sorry Brother Septenno and sister Rosangelina but there is something wrong with your statements.

"Their Christian character must be without a blemish, or they will be pronounced unfit to be taken to a holy heaven, to dwell with pure, sinless beings in God’s everlasting kingdom." {ApM 29.2}

Here is the power of forgiveness... pay close attention please.

"Then Jesus “lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.” The accusers saw that Jesus not only knew the secrets of their past sins, but was acquainted with their purpose in bringing this case before him, and had in his matchless wisdom defeated their deeply laid scheme. They now became fearful lest Jesus would expose their guilt to all present, and they therefore “being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last; and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.” {2SP 350.2}
There was not one of her accusers but was more guilty than the conscience-stricken woman who stood trembling with shame before him. After the Pharisees had hastily left the presence of Christ, in their guilty consternation, he arose and looked upon the woman, saying, “Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more.” {2SP 351.1}
Jesus did not palliate sin nor lessen the sense of crime; but he came not to condemn; he came to lead the sinner to eternal life. The world looked upon this erring woman as one to be slighted and scorned; but the pure and holy Jesus stooped to address her with words of comfort, encouraging her to reform her life. Instead of to condemn the guilty, his work was to reach into the very depths of human woe and degradation, lift up the debased and sinful, and bid the trembling penitent to “sin no more.” When the woman stood before Jesus, cowering under the accusation of the Pharisees and a sense of the enormity of her crime, she knew that her life was trembling in the balance, and that a word from Jesus would add fuel to the indignation of the crowd, so that they would immediately stone her to death. {2SP 351.2}
Her eyes droop before the calm and searching glance of Christ. Stricken with shame, she is unable to look upon that holy countenance. As she thus stands waiting for sentence to be passed upon her, the words fall upon her astonished ears that not only deliver her from her accusers, but send them away convicted of greater crimes than hers. After they are gone, she hears the mournfully solemn words: “Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more.” Her heart melts with penitential grief; and, with gratitude to her Deliverer, she bows at the feet of Jesus, sobbing out in broken accents the emotions of her heart, and confessing her sins with bitter tears. {2SP 352.1}

This is how to attain the perfection of character that permits us to enter the kingdom of heaven. To recognize our unworthiness and repent before the MERCY of Jesus. Then He enters our hearts and makes us His own, implanting His righteousness and faith. Thus we are seen as Christ before the Father and permitted into heaven in His name.


So, Sister EGW taught that! What can I say, as an SDA I will not object her although I disagree with that, for the Bible say different. And since she said that her writings is a lesser light to bring us to the greater light of understanding the bible, I will choose the greater light to led my way. Except I have been proven wrong.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144405
08/05/12 09:52 AM
08/05/12 09:52 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Can a believer achieve a perfect sinless character without blemish?

According to my study, here what Paul said:

Romans 7:9 (NLT) At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, 10 and I died.

He said later, Philippians 3:6
New Living Translation (NLT)
6 I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.

As a Pharisee he was perfect in keeping the law.

That one time he mentioned in Romans 7:9, he clarified later in Philippians 3:6. He thought he was perfect and blameless in his righteousness according to the law. But, seems not like that. Now, after knowing Christ he knew the sin in him and his imperfect righteousness.

Later on he said again:
1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief (in present tense).

When he wrote this, he was nearly at the end of his life, and still he said "he is the chief of sinners."

So, logically, after knowing Jesus and reborn again as His believer, according to your ideas here, he will have no problem in reaching a sinless perfect character state, for now led by the Spirit, what his righteousness ever was, is now perfect, and fulfill the righteous demand of the law completely.

Where is the claim that with the joint operation of the Spirit and his will, he might reached a perfect sinless state without blemish? Instead he said "he is still a sinner" despite all of his own teaching regarding perfection.

Therefore I conclude, as Paul said:
Philippians 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

And this righteousness is a free gift:
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

We all come short of the glory of God, which means we never can attain a character that is his glory,i.e.: holiness, love, righteousness.

But because of that, justification is unconditional except by faith.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144406
08/05/12 10:11 AM
08/05/12 10:11 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Justification is unconditional except by faith, and the only thing a man can stumbled upon and lost his gift of justification unto eternal life, is when he draw back from faith.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Even the wage of sin is death, and we can't stop sinning, but in Christ God forgave all our sins when we confess, and as long we remain in Christ by faith, we remain saved, and will not loose our life.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1 John 5:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Thus, a perfect sinless character without blemish is a prerequisite for justification to enter heaven and live eternally, seems in contradiction with what I thought.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144410
08/05/12 05:29 PM
08/05/12 05:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno
M: We are saved by faith. We are saved based on what Jesus accomplishes for us. We cannot work our way to heaven or do anything to earn eternal life. We can, however, forfeit eternal life by refusing, neglecting, or failing to cooperate with the agencies of heaven to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit. We are born again dead to sin, awake to righteousness, "complete in" (Col 2:10) Christ. "Perfect and complete in all the will of God" (Col 4:12).

J: What the bible tell me about loosing heaven and eternal life is only when I draw back from faith (Hebrew 10:38). When we sinned, we confess our sin and God forgave us. Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. What you said is an example of those who has no faith in Christ, and live for self. But a faithful believer is also a sinner justified because of his faith, when he sinned, confess, and he will be forgiven without loosing his salvation.

You wrote, "What you said is an example of those who has no faith in Christ, and live for self." I'm sorry my post led you to conclude I believe such a terrible thing. My apologies. Actually, I believe the fruit of rebirth is salvation, pardon, and "righteousness and true holiness".

Ephesians
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #144413
08/05/12 10:47 PM
08/05/12 10:47 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

Even the wage of sin is death, and we can't stop sinning, but in Christ God forgave all our sins when we confess, and as long we remain in Christ by faith, we remain saved, and will not loose our life.


This is where you are wrong and prove you are not sanctified. This can be corrected and do not think I am being aggressive towards you, which is not my intention, only to serve our perfect Christ Jesus.

It is possible to stop sinning as proven by Enoch and Elijah who would have never been allowed to enter heaven while still alive if what you say is correct.

"A few in every generation from Adam resisted his (Satan's) every artifice and stood forth as noble representatives of what it was in the power of man to do and to be, while Christ should co-operate with human efforts, to help man in overcoming the power of Satan. Enoch and Elijah are the correct representatives of what the race might be through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Satan was greatly disturbed because these noble, holy men were untainted amid the moral pollution surrounding them, perfecting righteous characters, and accounted worthy for translation to heaven. As they had stood forth in moral power, in noble uprightness, overcoming Satan’s temptations, he could not bring them under the dominion of death. He triumphed that he had power to overcome Moses with his temptations, and that he could mar his illustrious character and lead him to the sin of taking to himself glory before the people which belonged to God." {Con 26.1}

"In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning. {ST March 3, 1890, par. 3}

"Many bemoan the disobedience of Adam, which resulted in bringing sin, suffering, and death, into the world. Surely, such should cease to transgress. But instead of doing better themselves than Adam did, they follow a course of transgression, thereby increasing the tide of woe. But let the children of Adam, who have the example of their father before them with all its terrible results, stop sinning, instead of complaining of their father, while they themselves are doing worse than he did. {HR December 1, 1872, par. 8}

It IS possible to stop sinning. I love everyone in Christ and I do not wish to argue for arguments sake but for righteousness sake. Peace.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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