Gary,

I didn’t even have the opportunity to welcome you and you have already left! I hope you change your mind.

Tom,

1- About faith:

“Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. ... So faith, hope, love abide, these three” (1 Cor. 13: 8, 13).

"The Lord created every tree in Eden, pleasant to the eyes and good for food, and he bade Adam and Eve freely enjoy his bounties. But he made one exception. Of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they were not to eat. This tree God reserved as a constant reminder of his ownership of all. Thus he gave them an opportunity to demonstrate their faith and trust in him and their perfect obedience to his requirements.” {AU Gleaner, December 14, 1904}

“While Satan claimed to have received great good by eating of the forbidden tree, he did not let it appear that by transgression he had become an outcast from heaven. Here was falsehood, so concealed under a covering of apparent truth that Eve, infatuated, flattered, beguiled, did not discern the deception. She coveted what God had forbidden; she distrusted His wisdom. She cast away faith, the key of knowledge.” {Ed 24}

“Adam regretted that Eve had left his side, but now the deed was done. He must be separated from her whose society he had loved so well. How could he have it thus? His love for Eve was strong. And in utter discouragement he resolved to share her fate. He reasoned that Eve was a part of himself, and if she must die, he would die with her, for he could not bear the thought of separation from her. He lacked faith in his merciful and benevolent Creator.” {SR 36}

2- About grace. I was thinking about grace as mercy, for only those who sin need grace (mercy). In this sense Jesus never needed grace:

“We should never have learned the meaning of this word ‘grace’ had we not fallen. God loves the sinless angels, who do His service, and are obedient to all His commands; but He does not give them grace. These heavenly beings know naught of grace; they have never needed it; for they have never sinned. Grace is an attribute of God shown to undeserving human beings. We did not seek after it, but it was sent in search of us. God rejoices to bestow this grace upon every one who hungers for it. To every one He presents terms of mercy, not because we are worthy, but because we are so utterly unworthy. Our need is the qualification which gives us the assurance that we shall receive this gift.” {AG 10.2}

But if you think of grace as God’s assistance and blessing, then I think the word could be applied to Jesus.

3-

quote:

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Old Tom:Christ was tempted in all points as we are tempted, which includes doing things which are against the inclinations of our flesh.

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I agree, in the sense Ellen White is presenting here:

“The human will of Christ would not have led him to the wilderness of temptation, to fast, and to be tempted of the devil. It would not have led him to endure humiliation, scorn, reproach, suffering, and death. His human nature shrank from all these things as decidedly as ours shrinks from them. He endured the contradiction of sinners against himself. The contrast between the life and character of Christ and our life and character is painful to contemplate. What did Christ live to do? It was the will of his heavenly Father. Christ left us an example, that we should follow in his steps. Are we doing it?” {ST, October 29, 1894 par. 9}

Now, I don’t know what “inclinations of our flesh” you have in mind. Could you give some examples?

Mike,

Something that is being discussed here is whether Christ possessed or not inherited tendencies to evil. Something that is never discussed is that our cultivated tendencies to evil are much more powerful than our inherited tendencies, because sin is reinforced by repetition. In fact our greatest difficulty is to break with sinful habits. But Christ did not possess cultivated tendencies to evil. In fact, there is one temptation Christ never had, and that was to "do it just once more" (referring to sin). So, if Christ had to experience everything that we experience in order to show us that victory is possible, there would be no hope for drug addicts, alcoholics and homosexuals (sins based on a repeated behavior). However, the essence of temptation is always the same - to do your will instead of God’s will.

I don’t know if Christ was born born again. What is clear, however, is that Christ’s experience as a human being parallels that of born-again believers, that is, born-again believers have at their disposal the same resources Christ had, and may be overcomers in the same way that He was. He lived and died in order to make this possible.
Besides, His temptations were much stronger than ours. “You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin” (Heb. 12:4).

Rosangela:

1) Thank you for the quotes on faith. I would be interested if you could find any relating to non-humans.

2) I think "mercy" and "grace" are a bit different. Mercy would imply, it seems to me, an offence committed which is not recompensed as it should be. "Grace" to my mind involves the disposition of treating someone better than they deserve; that is, in a gracious way.

3) Having sex with someone who is not your spouse would be an inclination of the flesh. The flesh knows nothing of marriage or any such things. It only knows of desires; it's up to the mind to regulate the flesh.

We feel a tremendous conflict between the urgings of our flesh and what the mind knows to be true. Christ experienced this same conflict, but never gave in to temptation.

I suppose it depends upon what one considers faith to be. If one considers it to be trust in God based upon an appreciation of His character, then that certainly applies to all of God's children.

I'm not aware that inspiration uses the term for non-humans. Rosangela pointed out some quotes to where it is applied to Adam and Eve before they fell, so perhaps that is sufficient to establish the point. If any one can come across any statements relating faith to angels, I'd be interested in seeing that.

The classic definition of faith is that it is a conviction of things unseen. The context seems to me to be addressing the human condition.

To me this seems a matter of semantics. That is, in terms of the broader issue of the Great Controversy, I'm not aware that you (John B.) or I see things differently. Gary seemed to be on the same page as well.

Since this topic has been taken over by faith, I'll ask a few questions:

1) What is faith?
2) Is the faith referred to after sin arose any different than the faith referred to before?
3) Is the faith that fallen humans need to exercise any different than the faith that angels exercise (assuming angels exercize faith)?

The way you are suggesting to consider faith, as believing or trusting in God's character (it appears to me this is your thought) seems perfectly reasonable to me.

How faith would be different between us and unfallen beings would be if the experience of sin is involved. That is, for example, if faith has to do with grace and mercy, then we humans have experienced this personally, whereas unfallen beings have just witnessed it. They can still be moved by it, of course, but the experience isn't the same.

If one conceives of faith as a trust in God's goodness, which seems like one possible very reasonable definiton, then there wouldn't necessarily be any difference.

It appears to me that how faith is used in Scripture, especially in the Greek, encompasses more than how we generally use the word in English.

1) What is faith?

Taking God at His word.

2) Is the faith referred to after sin arose any different than the faith referred to before?

No. The fruit of faith is obedience.

3) Is the faith that fallen humans need to exercise any different than the faith that angels exercise (assuming angels exercize faith)?

No. In both cases the fruit of faith is obedience. Our circumstances are totally different, of course, but the fruit of the faith is obedience no matter where or by whom it is exerised.

Is taking God at His word all that faith is? Does faith involve appreciation, for example? Or gratitude? Does it involve an admiration of God's character?

For example, a person could hate God, and still take Him at His word. Would such a person be exercising faith? Would this faith be salvific?