The doctrine of total depravity (or total inability) says that all men, as a consequence of the Fall, are born morally corrupt, enslaved to sin, at enmity with God, and unable to please Him or even of themselves to turn to Christ for salvation. Thus God must elect us to salvation, basically we are predesntined to be saved or lost before we are born and thus have no true free will. This has always bothered me and I have always taken Calvinism with a grain of salt or have this feeling that Calvin never got a complete picture but it had to wait till Arminius came and drew a fuller picture of the cause of the wretchedness of sinners as taught in Scripture. Arminius writes:

'In the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with "righteousness and true holiness," and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created (Gen. 1:26-27), from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it (Gen 2:17), and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 4:24; Col. 3:10).
But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence as to be incapable of being moved by the representation presented to him of some good (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this [natural] life, or of a superior kind and relating to spiritual life), inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his Chief Good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that Chief Good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the Dominion of Sin. . . .

In this state, the Free Will of man towards the True Good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost: And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.'Twenty-Five Public Disputations: Disputation XI. On the Free Will of Man and its Powers," in The Works of Arminius, trans. James Nichols (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1986), 2:191-92.

Both Arminius and Calvin believed in the total depravity of all human beings as maintained in Scripture. And both Arminius and Calvin believed in the total inability of all human beings to do anything towards salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. The major difference between the two concerning their doctrine of depravity is in the solution of God in overcoming the effects of the fall. For Calvin, an unconditionally elect person must first be infused with faith in Christ Jesus in order to be justified and regenerated.

For Arminius, a person must be graced by the Spirit of God in the overcoming of the depraved nature so that the person may be freed to believe in Christ Jesus. If such is accomplished and not resisted, then the person is justified and regenerated. But sinners must be enabled by the Spirit of God because they are totally and utterly depraved, captured and enslaved by sin, and completely undone.

Adventist believe that man is depraved as scripture teachers that. All adults are sinners and are spiritually separated from God. All of mankind has sinned and come short of God's glory.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth ; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners …

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable ; there is none that doeth good, no, not one .

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God ;

However, by Total Depravity Calvinism concludes that man's will becomes corrupted and thus non-functional and that man's will exists but it does not work so that we can choose God.

Calvin in my opinion went too far and basically drew a picture of man with no free will, all his abilities for good taken from him to the point that man just sits and waits for his execution or salvation with no input. Concerning the sinful state in which humanity exists, Calvin writes:

'Therefore, since through man's fault a curse has extended above and below, over all the regions of the world, there is nothing unreasonable in it extending to all his offspring. After the heavenly image in man was effaced, he not only was himself punished by a withdrawal of the ornaments in which he had been arrayed, i.e., wisdom, virtue, justice, truth, and holiness, and by the substitution in their place of those dire pests, blindness, impotence, vanity, impurity, and unrighteousness, but he involved his posterity also, and plunged them in the same wretchedness.'

It just strikes me as wrong, as man from the beginning had free will that was the whole reason man was able to sin. If anything it was not God that takes it away but Satan as evil plunges man into its grip and takes away his free will. What are your thoughts.

This is an interesting study of Arminius and Calvin. Will you give us a comparison with Luther and Erasmus as well?

Jesus said that those who sin are slaves to sin. Slaves have no choice. They must obey sin.

Thus, the conclusion that Satan takes away free choice is exactly right.

The only choice we get is to either continue with sin or else ask God to free us from the sin, which sets us free. Once he frees us, then we have true free will. Unfortunately, most of us don't use it very well! Like dogs going back to their barf, we have a tendency to return to the sin again. So, forgiveness is in place so that we may once again be restored to the free will condition.

The underline is not true Wendell. Scriptures says we are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ. There is no freewill in either camp.

There is true freedom in Christ's camp but no freewill. There's a sharp distinction between freewill and freedom.

If what you said is true, then we would have no choice but to always obey Christ once he frees us just as the sinner has no choice but to sin. We all know that is not true. Once you start sinning, you cannot stop it. However, once Christi frees us, you can still choose to sin at any point. That has always been true and always will be true. Hence, what I said remains true.

Only the Father's has Freewill
Just because the man of sin (in the converted or non-converted man) can sin does not prove he has freewill. It only proves that some of the Law(will) of the Lord is still not written in his heart.

There is only one Freewill and it is the will of the Father. He institute laws(will) and coerce us to follow them. If we do not, He corrects us like a loving Father, until all His laws(wills) are written in our heart. This is the plan of salvation.

Just because the man of sin thinks he has freewill and think he can do whatever he thinks he can do, doesn't prove it is so, nor does it prove he has free will. It does prove that "the Lord is slow to anger" and He saw fit that we would learn righteousness via seeing the fruits of our foolishness and through His judgments when the appointed times comes.

The Bible is clear the man of sin is SLAVE to Sin(has no freewill). And the new man is slave to Christ(has no freewill). There's no middle ground where man can exercise his freewill in either camps.

Conversion is not a product of exercising Freewill
Even the conversion of a man is not done via the man's freewill, but by the working of the Lord whenever He choose it.

The Good Teacher gives us limited Choices
When events happens, the Lord gives maybe two or three choices, but these are controlled by His working behind the scenes to bring us in front of this event to teach us His laws(will).

The Lord is continually teaching us. The good teacher plans the lessons and will give choices to his student facing the problem. If he chooses the wrong answer, then the teacher repeats the lessons until it is well understood. So amid these limited choices there is still no freewill. This is how the Lord works with all his children and will write all His Laws(will) in everyones heart as He purposed it.

_|_, if I remember right, seems like somewhere else you were addressing the topic that we were all predestined or something to that effect?

Elle The argument you just presented is called 'Hard Determinism' and is exactly the argument Satan used against God to get one third of all heavenly angels to fall, then he used it against Eve in the Garden!

We do not have creative abilities like God, and yes there are limitations on the abilities the Father has created us with, but this does not mean we do not have free will. We have the right given by God to accept his word or not, and this is free will.

Any other argument in theology that claims we do not have free will is based off the argument that God will not allow men to pass certain boundaries, and they say this implies a limitation on free will. That argument is aimed at discrediting God and if you truly believe that Elle, I truly believe you are being possessed by demons.

If through our free will we accept His word, then He opens the door to have access to His power through prayer and use it for His glory and our peace, this is only exercised by free will.

There were even sacrifices called "freewill offerings" where men would bring a sacrifice to God of their own volition. Are you going to tell me God got it wrong when He called it that?

I truly think you are being motivated by Satan to try to bring discord into the church.

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you."

He gives us the choice and says "IF you abide in me ask what YOU want and it will be given to you".

The reason for limitations on the choices we can make is because of our fallen condition. If you love your children do you give them free access to things that would destroy them without first warning them of the dangers?