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Re: Doctrine of total inability/total depravity or do we have a free will. [Re: James Peterson] #189415
05/18/19 09:33 AM
05/18/19 09:33 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Rick H
The doctrine of total depravity (or total inability) says that all men, as a consequence of the Fall, are born morally corrupt, enslaved to sin, at enmity with God, and unable to please Him or even of themselves to turn to Christ for salvation. Thus God must elect us to salvation, basically we are predesntined to be saved or lost before we are born and thus have no true free will. This has always bothered me and I have always taken Calvinism with a grain of salt or have this feeling that Calvin never got a complete picture but it had to wait till Arminius came and drew a fuller picture of the cause of the wretchedness of sinners as taught in Scripture. Arminius writes:

'In the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with "righteousness and true holiness," and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created (Gen. 1:26-27), from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it (Gen 2:17), and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 4:24; Col. 3:10).
But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence as to be incapable of being moved by the representation presented to him of some good (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this [natural] life, or of a superior kind and relating to spiritual life), inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his Chief Good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that Chief Good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the Dominion of Sin. . . .

In this state, the Free Will of man towards the True Good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost: And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.'Twenty-Five Public Disputations: Disputation XI. On the Free Will of Man and its Powers," in The Works of Arminius, trans. James Nichols (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1986), 2:191-92.

The following quote boggles the mind, "the Free Will of man towards the True Good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost: And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace". It sounds like the thesis abstract of a student of theology attempting to sound pedantic in order to impress his professors.
  • No one can conceive of what he does not know -- so that we, cut off from the Garden of Eden since Adam, completely lost all revelation of God. This has nothing to do with free will or the lack thereof. A child of the Amazon, playing happily among the trees, has NO inkling of or desire for a Maritime SDA account. To urge upon him the utility of one would be like offering a roach for dinner to a wealthy man. It makes no sense in either case and may even be viewed as repulsive!
     
  • It therefore takes someone who knows God to re-introduce Him in a way that is meaningful and appropriate. And even so, some of us are like that child in the forest, content with whatever we have and inclined to reject outright any offer of a scholarship at a US school, for example. But some, given to adventure, curiosity and wonder, would leap at the opportunity.

    This has nothing to do with free will or the lack thereof; but rather with the nature of each individual (distinct and apart from any second or third party), being presented with the same offer and the freedom to choose, determining their own course of action.
     
  • It is written, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom. 10:17. You needed someone to teach you, to show you because you simply did not know. Darkness vs Light. Ignorance vs. Knowledge. NOT about free will which you have and always had and will.

///

It basically takes away the Judgement by God, and places it mans hands, that is why it allowed for the burning at the stake and the deaths by persecution such as the Inquisition.

Last edited by Rick H; 05/18/19 09:34 AM.
Re: Doctrine of total inability/total depravity or do we have a free will. [Re: Rick H] #189835
06/25/19 03:15 PM
06/25/19 03:15 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted by Rick H
It basically takes away the Judgement by God, and places it [in] mans hands, that is why it allowed for the burning at the stake and the deaths by persecution such as the Inquisition.

Well said. The HEALTHY, STRONG AND EXTREMELY FREE WILL granted to humanity is exemplified by both the good and evil men have demonstrated, unencumbered, throughout history even in the name of God.

Consider the words of the three Jews in Babylon of whom Nebuchadnezzar demanded idolatry, "our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up." God gave Nebuchadnezzar the free will to BOTH cast them into the fiery furnace AND (after He, God, walked with them in the fire and they had come out unhurt) to elevate them into positions of importance in Babylon. And God gave them the free will to EITHER bow before the image OR not.

The Bible does not support the doctrine of puppet theology. Your will is not broken or damaged or in any way diminished, hence the judgment of God is righteous and no one can accuse Him of selfish manipulation of human beings. "Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?" Rom. 3:5-6

///

Re: Doctrine of total inability/total depravity or do we have a free will. [Re: Rick H] #189853
06/26/19 12:20 PM
06/26/19 12:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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We are not free to live in harmony with God's will without also depending on God to enable us to experience rebirth, to abide in Jesus, to walk in the Spirit, to walk in the mind of the new man, to partake of the divine nature - all of which empowers us to use our sanctified powers of mind and body to labor, agonize, wrestle, strive to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan and to trust and love and obey God joyfully. The instant we neglect or reject Jesus - we are powerless to live in harmony with God's will. The gift of repentance gives God the legal right to pardon us and to resume empowering us to live in harmony with His will, to pick up where we left off trusting, loving, obeying Him. This arrangement, this dynamic does not make us puppets, instead, it makes us like a solar powered car that goes and goes in the light of God's love and glory. Just gotta choose moment by moment to stay plugged into Jesus.

Re: Doctrine of total inability/total depravity or do we have a free will. [Re: Mountain Man] #189854
06/26/19 04:04 PM
06/26/19 04:04 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted by Mountain Man
We are not free to live in harmony with God's will without also depending on God to enable us to experience rebirth, to abide in Jesus, to walk in the Spirit, to walk in the mind of the new man, to partake of the divine nature - all of which empowers us to use our sanctified powers of mind and body to labor, agonize, wrestle, strive to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan and to trust and love and obey God joyfully. The instant we neglect or reject Jesus - we are powerless to live in harmony with God's will. The gift of repentance gives God the legal right to pardon us and to resume empowering us to live in harmony with His will, to pick up where we left off trusting, loving, obeying Him. This arrangement, this dynamic does not make us puppets, instead, it makes us like a solar powered car that goes and goes in the light of God's love and glory. Just gotta choose moment by moment to stay plugged into Jesus.

You're right. Yours is not puppet theology but something more modern: ROBOT theology. And the biblical evidence for it is ...?

///

Re: Doctrine of total inability/total depravity or do we have a free will. [Re: James Peterson] #189855
06/26/19 04:37 PM
06/26/19 04:37 PM
N
Nadi  Offline
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Active Member 2020
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
Originally Posted by James Peterson

You're right. Yours is not puppet theology but something more modern: ROBOT theology. And the biblical evidence for it is ...?

///

So James, it seems you have a name for everyone else's theology. What do you call yours?


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Doctrine of total inability/total depravity or do we have a free will. [Re: Rick H] #189875
06/27/19 12:17 PM
06/27/19 12:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, why do you label the thoughts shared in my post - Robot? We are born slaves, servants of sin, self, and Satan and are, as such, incapable of reproducing Jesus' lovely traits of character. We can choose to experience rebirth and then choose to cooperate with Jesus to live in harmony with God's will but only while we are actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus, walking in the Spirit and in the mind of new man, partaking of the divine nature. Without Jesus we cannot not sin. All we can do apart from Jesus is sin. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (no matter how righteous it appears on the surface).

Re: Doctrine of total inability/total depravity or do we have a free will. [Re: Rick H] #189877
06/27/19 12:29 PM
06/27/19 12:29 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Quote
And God gave them the free will to EITHER bow before the image OR not.
While they had free will in relation to God, but with Nebuchadnezzar threatening to burn them, would you say they had "free will" in relation to Nebuchadnezzar?

Re: Doctrine of total inability/total depravity or do we have a free will. [Re: Rick H] #189879
06/27/19 12:39 PM
06/27/19 12:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Romans 2
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

True, under certain circumstances there are times when people who are ignorant of God, His Law, and the Plan of Salvation they are able to make choices that are in harmony with God's will.

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