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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14606
06/18/05 09:33 AM
06/18/05 09:33 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
I have four guests at home this weekend, so I won't have much time.
But please, consider the following. The definition of wrath used here is completely wrong. God's wrath is not "delivering someone up to the results of his own sin"; it's not "turning away in loving disappointment". God's wrath is His aversion to sin. It has to do with sin, not with men.
Now you may ask: in view of His wrath against sin, does God kill sinners or does He deliver them up to be killed? Look, He is not delivering them up to someone else's wrath. He is delivering them up to His own wrath! Therefore, to me, it does not make sense to ask if God kills people by His wrath or if He delivers them up to be killed by His wrath. God is the agent who manifests wrath, and this wrath kills. This is a strange and painful act for God, but He will be forced to do it. What else could He do with them? God will put the wicked in His presence knowing that His glory will kill them. It's the same as putting someone in the gas chamber and then discussing if you are killing the person with the gas or delivering up the person to be killed by the gas.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14607
06/18/05 01:09 PM
06/18/05 01:09 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Rosangela: The amount of wrath you fulminate on behalf of God is, both overwhelming and disheartening. I am so glad that Christ was very different than that. And I know he did not invent his own difference, but has learned all things from his father. quote:
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Has your judgment and concept of righteousness ever produced the results of the above scriptures? Are you sure that the things you are saying are delighting the father?
Christ came to bear witness of the truth. To bring your judgment unto truth. Are the fruits of your judgment the same as those above?
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14608
06/18/05 01:18 PM
06/18/05 01:18 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Did God kill Christ? Peter answered this question on Pentecost in this way: quote:
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Christ spoke of it in this way:
quote:
Luk 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God:...Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning;
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
The Jewish leaders said it this way:
quote:
Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
So here is the testimony of a witness, the testimony of the perpetrators, and the testimony of Christ (the victim) who died. It is shown that man, under the leadership and power of Satan, the working of darkness and sin, is the one that killed him.
Was this a just act?
Was God’s righteousness satisfied with this wicked work?
What fellowship has light with darkness?
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14609
06/19/05 02:05 AM
06/19/05 02:05 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
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It is sin that killed Christ. Your sins and my sins. Because of sin Christ died to make a way of escape for us. God could have intervened but He chose not to for the same reason Christ gave Himself for us.
They loved us and wanted to give us the chance to choose eternal life.
Christ could have come down off the cross, God could have intervened, the angels also could have intervened but they CHOSE not to. This does not mean THEY killed Christ--No, WE DID! Our SINS did.
If Adam and Eve had not sinned Christ would not have had to come to save us.
It is impossible (or too deep) to explain how God suffered when His only Son died. The same with the angels. They loved Him. It was LOVE for you and I that they did not intervene in that Great Sacrifice for us.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14610
06/19/05 01:12 AM
06/19/05 01:12 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Yes Debbie, it was our sins that crucified him; in a very real way, not in some abstract way. "Our sin" moved our heart, hands and feet to crucify him.
He was willing to suffer our unrighteousness because he loved us. So that we would not perish in our unrighteousness but receive his righteousness and have everlasting life.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14611
06/19/05 01:58 AM
06/19/05 01:58 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
God will put the wicked in His presence knowing that His glory will kill them. It's the same as putting someone in the gas chamber and then discussing if you are killing the person with the gas or delivering up the person to be killed by the gas.
Ai, ai, aaaai, ai, ai! What a negative image!
When Moses asked God to desplay His glory, God responded, "I will cause all my goodness to pass before thee." (Ex. 33:18, 19).
The glory of God is His goodness. The Spirit of Prophesy says the the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteousness, slays the wicked. That is to say, it is God's goodness (which gives life to the righteous) which slays the wicked.
Now if goodness causes death, it must be evident that there is something wrong with the wicked. Goodness should never cause death, and the design of goodness is simply life. But the wicked have so damaged themselves that for God to reveal His goodness to them is to cause their death. It is their sin, their own choice, which has caused their destruction.
What the wicked need to be saved from is not God's wrath (which is simply God's revealing His goodness to them), but from their sin. It is sin which causes us to view God in a false light, and it is the revelation of Jesus Christ which reveals the truth about God to us.
The purpose of Christ's ministry was to reveal God and set us right with God. When we see Christ, we've seen the Father, and that truth heals us.
If sin is deadly, then the perspective we have of things is like this:
1) Sin is deadly.
2) Therefore God seeks to heal (save) us from it.
3) This He does by revealing the truth to us -- the truth about Himself and the principles of His government, about Satan and the principles of his government, the truth about ourselves, and the truth about sin and death.
4) To those who refuse to be healed, sin will eventually result in their ruin.
5) Christ demonstrated all these principles in His life, death and resurrection.
6) Especially Christ's death demonstrated these principles, and revealed the nature of the death which sin causes, and from which God is fighting to save us.
If we do not see sin as deadly, our perspective is like this:
1) Sin is not deadly.
2) But God doesn't like it, because God is holy, and sin is contrary to His wishes.
3) Because of His righteous character, God must punish sin. God punished His Son so that can forgive those who believe in Christ.
4) Those who refuse to believe in Christ will be punished for their sin.
In the one paradigm, God is seen as actively working to save the lost from their sin; to rescue them from the foolishness of their choice of rebellion by revealing the truth to them. In the other paradigm, God is seen as acting in relation to His justice and holiness, rather than out of love to save the wicked.
There is a philosophic difficulty in the idea that God with one hand holds out a club of death, and with the other holds out an offer of mercy. If you don't accept the offer of mercy offered by the one hand, then He will kill you with the other.
The problem with this view of God is that it cannot lead to loving obedience. It's impossible. This is demonstrated by history. This was the view the Pharisees had of God, and what did it lead to? It led to their killing God when He lived among them in the flesh.
By love is love awakened, and the work of God is to educate us as to His true character so that we, not out of fear, but out of admiration of His character and from emotions and thoughts won by the revelation of His love choose to live in accordance to the principles of His government which lead to life.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14612
06/19/05 03:16 AM
06/19/05 03:16 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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You took the words right outta my mouth, Tom and said it much better that I. I'm copying this post and putting it elsewhere, it's that clear!
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14613
06/19/05 07:05 AM
06/19/05 07:05 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thank you Phil. I've appreciated the ongoing discussion, as it's helped to clarify my thinking. It's wonderful to have the opportunity to bounce thoughts off of one another.
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14614
06/19/05 11:58 AM
06/19/05 11:58 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Re: Did God kill Christ?
#14615
06/20/05 02:02 AM
06/20/05 02:02 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Fortunately, the view held by Tom, John and Phil is not the official view of God's wrath held by the SDA church. It is unfortunate though that their view seems to be dominating MSDAOL. I believe it is high time that MSDAOL take a positive stand for or against this view. If God does not punish and destroy unrepentant sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time then SDA theology, which is largely based on the writings of EGW, is false. Either her view of the Bible is right and she's a true prophet, or it it is not and she's a false prophet. Let's settle this matter once and for all.
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