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Re: 4th Quarter 2012 - Growing in Christ
[Re: APL]
#146499
11/01/12 09:20 PM
11/01/12 09:20 PM
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Questions: was the prohibition from eating from the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, arbitrary? Wouldn't you consider this an invitation to live happily in full sympathy and loving care of their Creator? Again I think 1 John 3:4-24 gives a beautiful picture of the difference between the arbitrary and the relationship with God and your family/neighbor.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: 4th Quarter 2012 - Growing in Christ
[Re: APL]
#146540
11/03/12 02:11 AM
11/03/12 02:11 AM
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Btw, all destruction is not caused by sin alone: God's judgement against sin is also destructive - eg. Noah's flood.
God in Christ wishes that none should perish but all come to repentance, indeed; yet, divine judgement shall happen, too. OH! I get it. So the wages of sin is really execution by God. Gotchya. Love me, or I'll bring a flood on you, or burn you alive. After all, God is love! God is love, and holy and just and good. Our God is a consuming fire, so sin cannot exist in his presence. When probation is over, mercy no longer pleads for sinners: annihilation of the wicked will be God's strange act, given his love, yet unavoidable, since God our Father and his Son our Lord Jesus Christ are holy. 
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Re: 4th Quarter 2012 - Growing in Christ
[Re: Mountain Man]
#146550
11/03/12 12:49 PM
11/03/12 12:49 PM
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PS - Not sure how Sabbath breaking can result in weeping and gnashing of teeth in the lake of fire.
That is, not sure how Sabbath breaking naturally results in weeping and gnashing of teeth in the lake of fire. Seems more likely it is imposed punishment. When I break the Sabbath or commit any other sin it hasn't resulted in weeping and gnashing of teeth in the lake of fire. In fact, breaking the Sabbath has never yielded discernible negative results. So, if the consequences of breaking the Sabbath need to be imposed, then the law of the Sabbath is arbitrary. Just as a speed limit of 55 MPH is arbitrary. That is not to say that a speed limit of 55 MPH is not good, but it is arbitrary. It could be 54 MPH, or 56 MPH, but someone decided, that 55 was what it was going to be. So probably, having Sabbath on Sunday is not so bad, or Friday. And then, if the punishment must be imposed for murder, and stealing, and coveting, or worshiping idols, then God really is a tyrant, and the phrase, "Love me, or I'll kill you" is true. And then lets quote Romans 6:23 this way, "The wages of sin, is execution by God". And we need to change our understand of James 1:13-15, which reads, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." We need to change this to when sin is finished, God out of Love will execute you. The penalty is imposed, not intrinsic. If all this is true, then EGW got it all wrong. Consider: The Law an Expression of God's Idea.--The law of ten commandments is not to be looked upon as much from the prohibitory side as from the mercy side. Its prohibitions are the sure guarantee of happiness in obedience. As received in Christ, it works in us the purity of character that will bring joy to us through eternal ages. To the obedient it is a wall of protection. We behold in it the goodness of God, who by revealing to men the immutable principles of righteousness, seeks to shield them from the evils that result from transgression. {6BC 1085.5}
We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {6BC 1085.6}
The law is an expression of God's idea. When we receive it in Christ, it becomes our idea. It lifts us above the power of natural desires and tendencies, above temptations that lead to sin (Letter 96, 1896). Do you get the idea that breaking the 10C brings on an Imposed penalty, or an Intrinsic? The Sinner's Only Hope.--"God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" ( John 3:16). God is our creator, benefactor, preserver. The author of all good, He is able to fulfill the purpose that He had in the creation of human beings. {9MR 121.1} The wickedness that fills our world is the result of Adam's refusal to take God's word as supreme. He disobeyed, and fell under the temptation of the enemy. "Sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" ( Romans 5:12). {9MR 121.2} God declared, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" ( Ezekiel 18:4). And apart from the plan of redemption human beings are doomed to death. "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" ( Romans 3:23). But Christ gave His life to save the sinner from the death sentence. He died that we might live. To those who receive Him He gives power that enables them to separate from that which, unless they return to their loyalty, will place them where they must be condemned and punished. {9MR 121.3} Christ is the sinner's only hope. By His death He brought salvation within the reach of all. Through His grace all may become loyal subjects of God's kingdom. Only by His sacrifice could salvation be brought within man's reach. This sacrifice has made it possible for men and women to fulfill the conditions laid down in the councils of heaven. {9MR 121.4} Christ came to this earth and lived a life of perfect obedience, that men and women, through His grace, might also live lives of perfect obedience. This is necessary to their salvation. "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord" (See Hebrews 12:14).--Manuscript 80, 1900, pp. 2-4. ("A Holy People," July 4, 1900.) {9MR 122.1}The soul that sins, will it be executed or will it die? Is the penalty imposed or intrinsic? God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression…. {DD 16.4} Did Christ die an execution by God? Is the "hiding of the Father's face" an execution? Read chapter of The Great Controversy. Is the penalty of trangression intrinsic or imposed? Christ saw in Jerusalem a symbol of the world hardened in unbelief and rebellion, and hastening on to meet the retributive judgments of God. ... {GC 22.1}
For nearly forty years after the doom of Jerusalem had been pronounced by Christ Himself, the Lord delayed His judgments upon the city and the nation. {GC 27.3}
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1} Is the penalty intrinsic or imposed? We need to know the answer to this question. If the penalty is imposed, then God really is a tyrant. If the penalty is imposed, then why not impose it at the beginning? But the penalty is not imposed. It is intrinsic. Read Patriarchs and Prophets then chapter, "Why Was Sin Permitted"? Is it clear that if the natural consequences of sin were allowed to proceed, then the on looking universe would not have understood. The would have believed Satan's charges. Read this chapter! The question about Sabbath keeping, is the penalty for breaking the Sabbath, intrinsic or imposed, needs to be understood. Just as the eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, needs to be understood whether the penalty is intrinsic or imposed. I will say that I don't have all the answers why how Sabbath breaking caused intrinsic death. But I believe it does and I believe there are hints in science. Conclusive? No, but hints.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: 4th Quarter 2012 - Growing in Christ
[Re: Colin]
#146551
11/03/12 01:10 PM
11/03/12 01:10 PM
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God is love, and holy and just and good. Our God is a consuming fire, so sin cannot exist in his presence. When probation is over, mercy no longer pleads for sinners: annihilation of the wicked will be God's strange act, given his love, yet unavoidable, since God our Father and his Son our Lord Jesus Christ are holy. Question - is sin can not exist in God's presence, then is the destruction of sinners an imposed penalty or intrinsic? God is a consuming fire, Hebrews 12:29. Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil; Again, is the destruction of the wicked and imposed penalty, or is it intrinsic?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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