The following description of the experience of the 144,000 during the time of trouble makes it clear that they are not more “fit” than saints like Paul and John. “…they have never made it a habit to trust in God.” “… faith, hope, and patience … have been too little exercised during their religious experience.”

I think he means that they are "fit" after their earthliness is consumed. So that doesn't really bug me.

What does bug me is the idea that the fit man represents humans. I believe that the fit man represents Christ and His work. Christ is the one who leads Satan to his death.

Unfortunately, I didn't get the chance to ask Dennis Priebe that. Maybe next time.

Gordon, I addressed this in my last post. What do you think?

Hello Mike,

These are good passages for reflection. Which is what I will do - reflect. They do not however show a comparison with how Paul or John would have faired. It seems clear to me that the 144,000 experience is unlike any before them, save that of Christ.

Certainly they (we?) will see their unworthiness and weakness. How can you be sure some resurrected saints are more fit? Proof of the comparison and difference is what I seek. Have you read this or concluded this by distillation of sources & ideas? Food for thought.

Gordon

Are you saying that Jesus did not refute all of Satan's charges before He went back to Heaven?

G: It seems clear to me that the 144,000 experience is unlike any before them, save that of Christ.

MM: I agree.

G: Have you read this or concluded this by distillation of sources & ideas?

MM: It's a deduction based on a compilation of quotes. The quotes I provided above suggest that at least some of the 144,000 are not in the same spiritual giants category as were Paul and John. Giants like them fair better.

Sister White seems to indicate it.

DA 761
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}

Switching gears a bit, would you say then that Christ's human nature had nothing to do with refuting Satan's charges, since He apparently didn't get it done before He left?

I haven't listened to his sermon, and just encountered this thread. I don't presently have a good internet connection, so it's text only. However, by the description, it looks just like the sermon I preached a few weeks ago.

As Mike so aptly queried, Why are we still here? If the great controversy were finished at the cross, why would God yet tolerate sin so much longer? It is odious to Him, abominable, and filthy. It would be like a parent seeing the soiled diaper of her child and just letting him wallow in it for another couple of miserable days. What would be the purpose in that?

The fact is, God's victory was won at the cross, but ours wasn't. Satan's claim from the beginning of the Great Controversy has been that God's law is not fair, that it cannot be kept. When Jesus came and lived a perfect life, He disproved Satan's claim. But Satan could then make a counter-claim. His claim now was that Jesus, creator of the law and fully divine, could naturally be expected to have power to keep it--but none of the representatives of fallen humanity could do so. The watching universe would have seen the sense in this argument, and doubts would still have remained in their minds. Suppose even that one or two humans, like Enoch, managed to reach a more perfect state, Satan could still claim that these were "flukes" and that it was not generally possible.

In order for God to be proven true and just with respect to His law, He needed a large number of people who could reflect His character perfectly in obedience to His law. This will happen with the 144,000. It will never have been equaled before that.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, I agree with you that the 144,000 will demonstrate a depth of salvation that no human has ever proven before. Satan will be given freedom to tempt them to whatever degree he deems necessary to deceive them into sin. Hitherto Jesus has limited Satan, not allowing him to tempt humans too severely. But not so during the time of Jacob's trouble. Though they will suffer greatly, they will remain faithful to Jesus, they will not sin. The watching universe, including evil angels, will be forced to confess, "Jesus Christ is Lord." "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

I also agree with you Jesus did not, could not, demonstrate this truth while here in the flesh. Nevertheless, He will prove it in and through the 144,000. However, I do not believe the 144,000 will be more holy, more righteous, or more obedient than others who enter the kingdom of God. Everyone who enters the pearly gates will be holy and righteous and obedient. No one can go to heaven without it. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." The thief on the cross and the apostle John were equally holy and righteous and obedient. The only difference between the two is measured in terms of maturity. In some cases, resurrected saints will be more mature than the 144,000.