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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153866
07/02/13 02:57 PM
07/02/13 02:57 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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What causes a person's "first death" and what causes a person's "second death?" The answer for BOTH, is sin. Sin is the cause of all disease and sickness, all aging, all behavior which we would call sin, such as killing, stealing, and social strife. One might argue that killing by the sword is not death by sin, but it is! I would also argue that sin is responsible for death by a number of other situations such as high energy fields such as radiation and electromagnetic, etc. What did Nadab and Abihu do? They went were they were explicitly told not to go. Why? Because if they did God would summarily execute them? No. They entered into God’s presence with their own fire, their own righteousness, which cannot endure before Him. This whole experiment with sin is to be a testimony that the law of God is perfect, you can not change what God has made. Had Satan be left to reap the natural consequences of sin in the beginning, the universe would not have understood that this was the natural consequences of sin. Read Patriarchs and Prophets, Chapter 1, "Why was sin permitted?" Read The Great Controversy, Chapter 1 "The Destruction of Jerusalem" and 29, "The Origin of Evil". And re-read them, multiple times. Sin pays its wage - Death, Romans 6:23. Sin, when it is full grown brings death, James 1:15.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153870
07/02/13 05:14 PM
07/02/13 05:14 PM
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SDA
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The answer to "who slew Saul" is more complicated than the answer to who slew Nadab and Abihu, and it involves a different set of circumstances. It was not a sword, powered by human muscles or choice, that brought Nadab and Abihu to their ends. Why?
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: kland]
#153892
07/03/13 02:28 AM
07/03/13 02:28 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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kland,
Do you have a good explanation for the cause of Nadab and Abihu's death? (Of course, their sin was the reason for it, but how was their death brought them?)
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153907
07/03/13 02:21 PM
07/03/13 02:21 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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No, the question is, why should the answer to who slew Saul any more complicated than any other thing which is attributed to God doing.
The Bible clearly says God slew Saul. But yet, it isn't as you think. So why should other places where "The Bible clearly says", should you not immediately think it may not be as you think.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: kland]
#153921
07/04/13 01:54 AM
07/04/13 01:54 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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No, the question is, why should the answer to who slew Saul any more complicated than any other thing which is attributed to God doing.
The Bible clearly says God slew Saul. But yet, it isn't as you think. So why should other places where "The Bible clearly says", should you not immediately think it may not be as you think.
I believe that God did kill Saul. But He did it through a different means this time than He did in the case of Nadab and Abihu. You, on the other hand, seem more inclined to the philosophy that says the Bible lied, telling us that God did something that He did not do--because "obviously, Saul took his own life." Who killed Jesus? The soldiers? our sins? God? Jesus Himself said that no one had the power to kill Him, but that He laid down His own life. So did He "commit suicide?" Obviously, that can't be the full answer. Yes, Jesus gave Himself to be our Sacrifice. But He allowed sin to snuff out His life--the result of separation from the Father because of the incredible weight of all of our sins. You have yet to explain Nadab and Abihu. Do you have an explanation for their death? I think you do not. Your view is unable to explain it. Will you consider broadening your view to allow that God did what He says He did? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: APL]
#153922
07/04/13 01:57 AM
07/04/13 01:57 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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What causes a person's "first death" and what causes a person's "second death?" The answer for BOTH, is sin. Sin is the cause of all disease and sickness, all aging, all behavior which we would call sin, such as killing, stealing, and social strife. One might argue that killing by the sword is not death by sin, but it is! I would also argue that sin is responsible for death by a number of other situations such as high energy fields such as radiation and electromagnetic, etc. What did Nadab and Abihu do? They went were they were explicitly told not to go. Why? Because if they did God would summarily execute them? No. They entered into God’s presence with their own fire, their own righteousness, which cannot endure before Him. This whole experiment with sin is to be a testimony that the law of God is perfect, you can not change what God has made. Had Satan be left to reap the natural consequences of sin in the beginning, the universe would not have understood that this was the natural consequences of sin. Read Patriarchs and Prophets, Chapter 1, "Why was sin permitted?" Read The Great Controversy, Chapter 1 "The Destruction of Jerusalem" and 29, "The Origin of Evil". And re-read them, multiple times. Sin pays its wage - Death, Romans 6:23. Sin, when it is full grown brings death, James 1:15. Where in the Bible does it say "The wages of sin is a double death"? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153931
07/04/13 04:30 AM
07/04/13 04:30 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Where in the Bible does it say "The wages of sin is a double death"? Are you saying the first death is not caused by sin? Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. All die the first death. The first death came about because of sin. But all will rise again. Do you deny James 1:15?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: APL]
#153932
07/04/13 04:45 AM
07/04/13 04:45 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Where in the Bible does it say "The wages of sin is a double death"? Are you saying the first death is not caused by sin? Of course not. Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Notice how many times Jesus suffered for sin? All die the first death. The first death came about because of sin. But all will rise again.
Do you deny James 1:15? No, I don't deny any of the Bible. But you haven't answered the question. Why does sin require a "double death?" Why will sinners die twice instead of once if the wages for sin just says "death?" Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153935
07/04/13 04:59 AM
07/04/13 04:59 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Jesus calls the first death sleep. Why? Because all will rise again. The only death the matters ultimately is the second death. The Bible does call it the second death. Why do they die the second death? Because they would not give up their sin. Sin pays its wage, death. Sin when it is finished, brings death, James 1:15. Execution by God? Nope.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: APL]
#153938
07/04/13 07:20 AM
07/04/13 07:20 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Jesus calls the first death sleep. Why? Because all will rise again. The only death the matters ultimately is the second death. The Bible does call it the second death. Why do they die the second death? Because they would not give up their sin. Sin pays its wage, death. Sin when it is finished, brings death, James 1:15. Execution by God? Nope. This doesn't answer the question. If sin has caused the first death, then sin has paid its wage. Why should a sinner be paid the wage of death TWICE? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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