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Re: does God punish?
[Re: kland]
#154088
07/11/13 09:55 PM
07/11/13 09:55 PM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Does it make a difference to you what instrument of death is used? Are you less dead if you hang in the gallows or are burned by fire?
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Johann]
#154115
07/12/13 12:07 PM
07/12/13 12:07 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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It makes no difference whether someone hangs you in the gallows, burns you by fire, lops off your head, tortures you and then revives you (or miraculously keeps you alive) so they can torture you some more. But it does make a difference whether someone does these things to you or lets you perish through your own insistent choice.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: kland]
#154157
07/15/13 08:40 PM
07/15/13 08:40 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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But it does make a difference whether someone does these things to you or lets you perish through your own insistent choice. In fact I don't see a difference between killing and letting die. I do see a difference in the purpose and reaction of him who does/permits it. Let's say you have a dog. Scenario 1: You build a barbwire fence to prevent him from having access to an area filled with quicksand. Every day he tries to go to the other side, and every day you try to teach him not to go there. But one day he diggs a hole under the fence and goes into the quicksand, and you let him die there because that was his insistent choice. While the dog is sinking in the quicksand, you just stay there and watch him die. Scenario 2: Your dog is wounded, suffering miserably, and, although this is very painful to you, you kill him. In the first scenario you let the dog die, in the second one you kill him. In which scenario do you really love your dog?
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Rosangela]
#154160
07/15/13 10:05 PM
07/15/13 10:05 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Rosangela - does God have the power to prevent rapes now? How cruel that He does not! Does God have the power to heal all sickness now? How cruel that He does not! Or is there another principle at work going on? Did God have the power to prevent fiery serpents from biting the people in the desert? Yes. How cruel that He SENT the serpents to bite the children! What is the principle behind all this?
Last edited by APL; 07/15/13 11:47 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: APL]
#154161
07/16/13 12:58 AM
07/16/13 12:58 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Rosangela - does God have the power to prevent rapes now? How cruel that He does not! Does God have the power to heal all sickness now? How cruel that He does not! Or is there another principle at work going on? APL, God has more than one way to deal with sin. As to the first two examples you gave, God is forced to permit these things in order to achieve a greater purpose, which is to show what sin does, in order to vaccinate the universe against it. In the case of the fiery serpentes, God permitted them in order to lead His people to seek salvation in Him. But there is a third thing that God sometimes has to do - He has to check the spread of sin - this is the case of God's judgments: the flood, Sodom, the holy wars, the death penalty, the Day of Judgment, etc. In the destruction of the old world by a flood of waters, God gave evidence that men had exceeded the bounds prescribed through His long-sufferance. And whenever a people, with a "thus saith the Lord" to guide them, presume upon His mercy, and go decidedly counter to His will, despising all His warnings, they finally exceed the limits of grace. Then God interferes and vindicates the honor of His law. He represses the increase of unrighteousness, by blotting out the race who become indifferent to His law which had been made known to the inhabitants of the Noatic [world]. Thus the Lord reveals to the whole human family that it is possible to go so far in sin and disgraceful transgression of His law, that it becomes necessary for Him to limit human life, and interpose in His wrath to prevent their spoiling one another in continual disobedience and defiance of His law. {21MR 65.2}
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Rosangela]
#154162
07/16/13 01:53 AM
07/16/13 01:53 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Notice the terms, "presume upon His mercy", "exceed the limits of grace". What is God's mercy? What is His grace? What is God's wrath? It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner. {DA 471.1} Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isaiah 53:4; Isaiah 53:3. {DA 471.2} God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3} Who inflicts suffering? God? NO. It is Satan! There are limits that God has, and there does come a time when God no longer uses His mercy. If you reject God, the time will come when He will say to us, "thy will be done.". Re-read the quote by EJ Waggoner above if you have forgotten it from {August 6, 1903 EJW, PTUK 500.5}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Rosangela]
#154168
07/16/13 01:03 PM
07/16/13 01:03 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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But it does make a difference whether someone does these things to you or lets you perish through your own insistent choice. In fact I don't see a difference between killing and letting die. I do see a difference in the purpose and reaction of him who does/permits it. Let's say you have a dog. Scenario 1: You build a barbwire fence to prevent him from having access to an area filled with quicksand. Every day he tries to go to the other side, and every day you try to teach him not to go there. But one day he diggs a hole under the fence and goes into the quicksand, and you let him die there because that was his insistent choice. While the dog is sinking in the quicksand, you just stay there and watch him die. Scenario 2: Your dog is wounded, suffering miserably, and, although this is very painful to you, you kill him. In the first scenario you let the dog die, in the second one you kill him. In which scenario do you really love your dog? But what if you try to rescue your dog and he snarls and snaps at you so that you have no choice but to give him up to his choice?
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: kland]
#154174
07/16/13 01:48 PM
07/16/13 01:48 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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But what if you try to rescue your dog and he snarls and snaps at you so that you have no choice but to give him up to his choice? This seems like an apt illustration of what some are doing here when faced with the truth. God may still try to present it, for awhile, but after a time, patience and mercy run out. Then destruction comes. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: kland]
#154175
07/16/13 01:56 PM
07/16/13 01:56 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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But what if you try to rescue your dog and he snarls and snaps at you so that you have no choice but to give him up to his choice? Ok. Let's suppose that. So there would be nothing wrong with Scenario 1. But what do you think is wrong with Scenario 2? Would you be a better owner in Scenario 1 than in Scneario 2?
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: APL]
#154176
07/16/13 01:58 PM
07/16/13 01:58 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Who inflicts suffering? God? NO. It is Satan! APL, Let me ask you a question. Who killed the Egyptians at the Red Sea?
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