4. Repentance = you turn
A. epistrephō (G1994)/shuwb (H7725)
5. A single sin moves us away from God
6. Jesus can save us from our sins – Mt 1:21
7. Ezekiel 36:27 – walk in statutes, keep judgments

I tried to listen on my iPod. There was no sound. Seems like it comes through on the laptop.

So you were on Palao?

It reminds me of a statement I once read in Ministry of Healing where it says that a single sin will not keep us out of heaven, or something like that. I will try to find it agains.

Does unknown sin count as a "single sin"? What all counts as a "single sin"?

When is Eze 36:27 a reality? Is it all inclusive? Or, does it overlook certain sinful habits? Are people born again ignorantly practicing some of the sins they cultivated prior to experiencing rebirth? If so, please name a few.

I would like to see that. What I remember is that one sin, unrepented of, will neutralize the power of the Gospel. I think that's from GC. And this is the general message I get from the Bible and SOP.

I lived in Palawan, an island of the Philippines.

Then we had Dr. Siegfried Horn whose Adventist parents in Nazin Germany sent him to a Jewish school because then he was not forced to attend on Sabbath. So he learned to read the Hebrew like his own language, and later also Greek. While incarcerated by the Nazis he translated the whole New Testament.

From the Hebrew Bible he concluded that originally the ten commandments were just ten Hebrew words where comments were later added. This is one reason why the wording in the two renderings is not the same.

Horn edited the SDA Bible Dictionary in the Commentary series. His knowledge through Hebrew and archeology did not always coincide with tradition.

Our homiletics professor, Dr. Beaven, warned us not to make references to Hebrew or Greek in our sermons. He claimed that would merely distract the audience.

I'm not sure that the Bible can agree with Dr. Siegfried's conclusions about the Ten Commandments. If each commandment were one word, we would have something like the following (and I still can't do it with just one word in English):

1) no gods
2) no idols
3) no hypocrisy
4) remember sabbath
5) honor parents
6) no murder
7) no adultery
8) no stealing
9) no lying
10) no coveting

But that this cannot be the case is established by the New Testament and by Mrs. White's writings.

For example, "Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise." (Ephesians 6:2, KJV)

If it were just the "honor" part, where is the promise? The promise was this part: "that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee."

I believe it would be impossible to wrap that promise, along with the command to honor one's parents, all into one Hebrew word--unless Hebrew is like these Asian languages where no whitespace is used to separate between words, and it is only used to delimit entire phrases or sentences, and one is choosing to define as one word that entire sentence. This would be the only way I could see of supporting such a claim as the "Ten Words." Of course, using that same yardstick, many verses of the Bible, if not most, would have been just "one word" in the original language as well.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

That sounds like a Catholic-trained professor. The Catholics like to keep people from understanding the Bible, and they look at only the priests as having sufficient knowledge to interpret it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You make this claim just after you have stated that the average people in the audience have no knowledge of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc. . . Are we dealing with two different personalties using the secret code Green something?

Dr. Siegfried Horn was not referring to any English text, but to the Hebrew where one word can include so much more than an English word. And he was referring to an expression in Scripture which in Hebrew referred to each commandment as a single word, even though it is not translated that way into English.

Dr. Horn was not referring to the wording found in Genesis, but to what was engraved in stone as described elsewhere by Moses.

Jesus raised the cover of the ark, and I beheld the tables of stone on which the ten commandments were written. I was amazed as I saw the fourth commandment in the very center of the ten precepts, with a soft halo of light encircling it. Said the angel, "It is the only one of the ten which defines the living God who created the heavens and the earth and all things that are therein." {CET 85.5}

John saw that these proud Jews were exalting and glorifying themselves by parading their ostentatious piety before the public. They bound portions of the law upon their foreheads and about their wrists, that all might recognize and pay deference to their assumed sanctity. True, God had commanded the children of Israel to place a ribbon of blue in the border of their garments, upon which the ten commandments, in brief, should be embroidered. This was to continually remind them of their duty to love God supremely, and their neighbor as themselves. But the farther they had departed from their primitive purity and simplicity, and the more directly their daily lives were opposed to the law of God, the more particular were they to make broad their phylacteries, and add to the words which God had specified should be traced on the ribbon of blue. Outwardly they were expressing the deepest devotion, while their acts were in strong contrast with their profession. {2SP 74.1}

John saw that the Jews who made high pretensions to piety, were exalting and glorifying themselves. Portions of the law were printed and bound upon their foreheads, and about their wrists. God had commanded the children of Israel to have a ribbon of blue in the border of their garments, upon which was embroidered words of the law, which expressed in short the ten commandments, to remind them of their duty to love God supremely, and to love their neighbor as themselves. The farther they departed from their primitive purity, and simplicity in their words and example, and the more their works were directly contrary to the law of God, the more particular were they to make broad their phylacteries, and add to the words that God had specified that they should have in the ribbon of blue. In their outward appearance, they were expressing exalted devotion and sanctity, while their works were in the widest contrast. {RH, March 4, 1873 par. 17}

That the words engraven upon stone were simply the ten commandments is evident. {HSFD 79.1}

1. It is said of the first tables:- {HSFD 79.2}

"And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone." [Deuteronomy 4:12, 13] {HSFD 79.3}

2. Thus the first tables of stone contained the ten commandments alone. That the second tables were an exact copy of what was written upon the first, is plainly stated:- {HSFD 79.4}

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou breakest." "And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou breakest and thou shalt put them in the ark." [Exodus 34:1; Deuteronomy 10:2] {HSFD 79.5}

3. This is confirmed by the following decisive testimony:- {HSFD 80.1}

"And he wrote upon the table the words of the covenant, the ten commandments," margin, Heb., "words." "And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments [margin, words], which the Lord spake unto you in the mount, out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the Lord gave them unto me." [Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 10:4] {HSFD 80.2}

These texts will explain the following language: "And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly." [Deuteronomy 9:10] Thus God is said to have written upon the tables according to all the words which he spoke in the day of the assemble; and these words which he thus wrote, are said to have been TEN WORDS. But the preface to the decalogue was not one of these ten words, and hence was not written by the finger of God upon stone. That this distinction must be attended to, will be seen by examining the following text and its connection:- {HSFD 80.3}

"THESE WORDS the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount, out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me." [Deuteronomy 5:22] {HSFD 80.4}

THESE WORDS here brought to view as written by the finger of God after having been uttered by him in the hearing of all the people, must be understood as one of two things. 1. They are simply the ten words of the law of God; or, 2. They are the words used by Moses in this rehearsal of the decalogue. But they cannot refer to the words used in this rehearsal; for, 1. Moses omits an important part of the fourth precept as given by God in its proclamation from the mount. 2. In this rehearsal of that precept he cites back to the original for that which is omitted. [Deuteronomy 5:12-15, compared with Exodus 20:8-11] 3. He appends to this precept an appeal in its behalf to their gratitude which was not made by God in giving it. 4. This language only purports to be a rehearsal and not the original itself; and this is further evinced by many verbal deviations from the original decalogue. [Deuteronomy 5, compared with Exodus 20] These facts are decisive as to what was placed upon the tables of stone. It was not an incomplete copy, citing elsewhere for the original, but the original code itself. And hence when Moses speaks of THESE WORDS as engraven upon the tables, he refers not to the words used by himself in this rehearsal, but to the TEN WORDS of the law of God, and excludes all else. {HSFD 80.5}

Obviously there have been generations of born again Christians who have been ignorantly breaking the 4th Commandment by treating the 7th day (Sabbath) as an ordinary work/pleasure day, and treating the 1st day (Sunday) as the Lord's Day with many referring to that day as the Sabbath.

Does this mean that they will all be lost for ignorantly living their whole lives to the grave observing Sunday as the Sabbath and treating the 7th day as a regular day like the other days of the week and thus have also in ignorance broken the 4th Commandment?

Psalm 87 His foundation is in the holy mountains.

2 The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.

4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.

6 The Lord shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

Obviously there have been generations of born again Christians who have been ignorantly breaking the 4th Commandment by treating the 7th day (Sabbath) as an ordinary work/pleasure day, and treating the 1st day (Sunday) as the Lord's Day with many referring to that day as the Sabbath.

Does this mean that they will all be lost for ignorantly living their whole lives to the grave observing Sunday as the Sabbath and treating the 7th day as a regular day like the other days of the week and thus have also in ignorance broken the 4th Commandment?

Hm - is Green an expert in the field of Hebrew? Horn was. Which to believe, which to believe? Boy that is a tough one. How about another testimony. John Andrews maybe?

People will be saved by the blood of Jesus - not because of their works. Again, the Bible does not describe believers ignorantly breaking the law of God. It describes them living in full and complete harmony with the will and law of God. Nowhere in the Bible does it describes believers living in ignorance of sin.

I believe that the words "unknown sin" qualifies to those who are ignorantly breaking the Sabbath by ignorantly observing Sunday as the Sabbath, or, as they call it, the Lord's Day.

Will there be any saved who never kept the 7th day? If so, are/were they converted believers?

Yes, there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here. No, they did not convert to observing everything Jesus commanded.

Yes, there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here. No, they did not convert to observing everything Jesus commanded.

A: Will there be any saved who never kept the 7th day? If so, are/were they converted believers?

M: Yes, there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here. No, they did not convert to observing everything Jesus commanded.

D: Didn't they as born again saved Christians in reality practice sin in their continuous breaking of the 4th Commandment?

A: Will there be any saved who never kept the 7th day? If so, are/were they converted believers?

M: Yes, there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here. No, they did not convert to observing everything Jesus commanded.

A: Are you saying there will be unconverted people in heaven?

A: Will there be any saved who never kept the 7th day? If so, are/were they converted believers?

M: Yes, there will be plenty of born-again, baptized believers in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath here. No, they did not convert to observing everything Jesus commanded.

A: Are you saying there will be unconverted people in heaven?

M: There will be plenty of people in heaven who did not complete the process of converting to obeying, observing "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. Jesus does not view them as "unconverted" because they were in the process of converting and were living in harmony with all the light they embraced.

He knows they would have embraced all truth had not death intervened.

However, the Bible does not describe born-again, baptized believers ignorantly living in violation of God's will and law.

The biblical description depicts believers as pure, holy, and righteous as Jesus.

Abiding in Jesus means everything. We are either all of His and free of sin or we are none of His and full of sin:

It is plainly stated in the Scriptures that if the whole congregation sin through ignorance, the priests shall make an atonement for the sins when they are made apparent, and the sin of ignorance shall be forgiven. The work of Jesus is to forgive the sins of the past, but if light comes from heaven to the church, and men refuse the light because its acceptance involves a cross, then they stand guilty before God; for they have made it manifest that they love the world more than they love Christ and the truth. Those who have an opportunity to hear the truth, and yet take no pains to hear or understand it, thinking that if they do not hear, they will not be accountable, will be judged guilty before God the same as if they had heard and rejected. There will be no excuse for those who choose to go in error when they might understand what is truth. In his sufferings and death Jesus has made atonement for all sins of ignorance, but there is no provision made for wilful blindness. Those who have hid their eyes from the truth lest they should be convinced, must exercise repentance toward God for the transgression of his law, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, that their sins of ignorance in the transgression of the Sabbath may be forgiven. {RH, April 25, 1893 par. 10}

Let none plead as an excuse for not keeping the Sabbath, that their fathers died accepted of God when keeping the first day of the week. No doubt they were accepted; for they did not sin against the light that is shining upon you in your day. God would have us walk in the light which shines upon us. We are to appreciate the truth that is presented to our understanding; for if we do not walk in the light, it becomes darkness, and our darkness will be proportionate to the light that is given. {RH, April 25, 1893 par. 11}

We shall not be held accountable for the light that has not reached our perception, but for that which we have resisted and refused. A man could not apprehend the truth which had never been presented to him, and therefore could not be condemned for light he had never had. But if he had opportunity to hear the message, and to become acquainted with the truth, and yet refused to improve his opportunity, he will be among the number of whom Christ said, "Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life." Those who deliberately place themselves where they will not have an opportunity of hearing the truth, will be reckoned among those who have heard the truth, and persistently resisted its evidences. {RH, April 25, 1893 par. 12}

Arnold, converting and converted are two different realities. People are converted who are living in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. People are converting who have not yet learned to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Of course, they are converted to the light they have so far embraced. Bug they are not converted in the fullest sense.

Again, the Bible does not describe partially converted born-again, baptized believers.

Indeed there is a process. The difference with us is that what you call conversion, I call sanctification. To you, conversion can take a long time to complete, then the believer is completely holy at the end. Most people call that sanctification.

To you, conversion can take a long time to complete, then the believer is completely holy at the end.

What word do you use to describe the process of learning and living in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded? I use the word converting. But clearly you disapprove.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." Repeatedly the Bible describes believers not sinning while they are actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus. But I hear you saying, no, they are guilty of sinning unknowingly.

Whoever is born of God does not sin. Yet, whoever says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.

So if you ask a born-again non-sinner if he has sin, what would he say? Do you know any born-again non-sinners that I could ask personally?

I know some born-again people, but none of them claim to be without sin.

Whoever is born of God does not sin. Yet, whoever says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him. So if you ask a born-again non-sinner if he has sin, what would he say? Do you know any born-again non-sinners that I could ask personally? I know some born-again people, but none of them claim to be without sin.

M: "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." Repeatedly the Bible describes believers not sinning while they are actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus. But I hear you saying, no, they are guilty of sinning unknowingly.

G: I read that verse to mean when we are abiding in Jesus we do not choose to sin. This is not quite the same as we do not sin.

"All have sinned". This will be true throughout eternity. No one can claim to have never sinned. But, praise the Lord, while we are abiding in Jesus we do not, cannot sin. Thank you, Jesus.

When is a person no longer a sinner?

We do not, cannot sin while abiding in Jesus. However, we do not lose the freedom or ability to neglect to abide in Jesus and sin. Good news, though, is that we will not sin while abiding in Jesus. Thank you, Jesus.

We need to know and may know that Christ is abiding in our hearts by faith, and that we are abiding in Jesus by faith. Jesus says, "I am the Vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit." Now listen to the conclusion of the verse: "For without me ye can do nothing." From this you can see how our Lord Jesus Christ regards unsanctified, human ability. We may have an education in the sciences, we may have all the knowledge in the world, and yet if it is not sanctified, if it is not brought under contribution to God, if we are not depending upon his merits every moment, if we are not continually drawing from Christ, we cannot live the life of Christ; we can do nothing worthy of his name. We want to hear the voice of Jesus and invite his presence. We should open the door of the heart to Christ, and invite him to come in. He says, "Without me ye can do nothing." Is it because men work without Christ that we see so many efforts made without accomplishing any good? Is it because man depends upon his own efforts, and his own power, and thinks that he can do great things of himself? I know that this is why the Lord can do so little for man. He uses the gifts of God as weapons to destroy himself. We want Jesus simply, Jesus who offers himself to us as a free gift; and if we accept the offering with the whole heart and soul, we shall praise God at every step, we cannot help it, because he has given us this manifestation of his love and condescension. What we want is Jesus, and the power of his grace; and may God baptize us with his Holy Spirit. "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." {RH, September 27, 1892 par. 3}

That is a wonderful promise, "If ye abide in me, and my words"--be careful to take that in--"my words abide in you." How are we to know that the words of Christ are abiding in us? how are we to understand them? It is by appropriating his promises to our souls that we feed upon Christ. We are to study his words carefully, and be doers of his word. Many trust in a flight of feeling, and think that in order to be accepted of God, they must have some special emotion come upon them, or they do not have the grace of Christ. But this is not what we are to look for. Jesus came that we might obey as well as receive; but we must believe in him, and receive, in order to obey. We are to ask, Are his words cherished by us? Are we doers of the word of Christ? This is an important question. If we are following the light just as far as it shines upon our pathway, if we are seeking to do the will of our heavenly Father, just so surely shall we be prepared for greater light to come into the heart and mind. Especially will this be the case when we are prayerfully searching the Scriptures. We have had the Spirit of God here in this meeting; we would dishonor God if we did not appreciate this, and praise his holy name that we have felt the manifestation of his Spirit in power. {RH, September 27, 1892 par. 4}

God permitted great light to shine upon the minds of these chosen men, revealing to them many of the errors of Rome; but they did not receive all the light that was to be given to the world. Through these, His servants, God was leading the people out of the darkness of Romanism; but there were many and great obstacles for them to meet, and He led them on, step by step, as they could bear it. They were not prepared to receive all the light at once. Like the full glory of the noontide sun to those who have long dwelt in darkness, it would, if presented, have caused them to turn away. Therefore He revealed it to the leaders little by little, as it could be received by the people. From century to century, other faithful workers were to follow, to lead the people on still further in the path of reform. {GC 103.1}

In short, you are talking about sin that you did in the past, while John is talking about sin that you have in the present. The distinction is important, and perhaps is the key to understanding what John meant when he said whoever is born of God does not sin (verb). He didn't say that whoever is born of God has no sin (noun).

M: We do not, cannot sin while abiding in Jesus. However, we do not lose the freedom or ability to neglect to abide in Jesus and sin. Good news, though, is that we will not sin while abiding in Jesus. Thank you, Jesus.

G: In this case, Huss, Jerome, Wycliffe, Luther, Melanchthon, William Miller and a great host of others, including the majority of "saints" in the church today, never ever experienced "abiding in Jesus." Perhaps this great host also includes Ellen White, who never fully understood some truths that affected her lifestyle. I cannot accept this view, Mike. You need to temper it with some additional information (truths). There is a great difference between choosing to sin (voluntary, willful sin) and sinning ignorantly (involuntarily, without knowledge). It is not possible to abide in Jesus while knowingly going against His law. But it is possible to abide in Him while involuntarily ignorant of some portions of His law, portions against which one may be sinning ignorantly.

To me, Mrs. White says that to abide in Christ, we must have His Word in our hearts. She further explains that experience of His Word entering our hearts in terms of "light" which we do not reject, but cherish and follow. Yet she is careful to speak of this following as "following the light just as far as it shines upon our pathway." In other words, we are not accountable to follow light which we do not have. We have not other human ability beyond that which is given us, and if God Himself will not present all of the light to us, how shall we follow it all?

God cannot, and does not, reveal all of the truth to our minds at once. If He did, we would either reject it, or perish outright. We are not yet able to bear it. This being the case, I can be nearly certain that I am sinning in unknown ways, along with any known sins I may have in my life. According to you, then, I could not possibly have any hope of "abiding in Jesus." Do you think you "abide in Jesus?"

Sin as a verb or a noun?

asygo: Whoever is born of God does not sin. Yet, whoever says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.

So if you ask a born-again non-sinner if he has sin, what would he say? Do you know any born-again non-sinners that I could ask personally?

I know some born-again people, but none of them claim to be without sin.

Johann: When is a person no longer a sinner?

asygo: Sin as a verb or a noun?

Johann: As a noun.

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Does the passage above describe Jesus withholding truth? Does it imply certain cultivated sinful traits of character are overlooked to be dealt with later on when the sinner/believer is strong enough to deal with it?

In short, you are talking about sin that you did in the past, while John is talking about sin that you have in the present. The distinction is important, and perhaps is the key to understanding what John meant when he said whoever is born of God does not sin (verb). He didn't say that whoever is born of God has no sin (noun).

M: We do not, cannot sin while abiding in Jesus. However, we do not lose the freedom or ability to neglect to abide in Jesus and sin. Good news, though, is that we will not sin while abiding in Jesus. Thank you, Jesus.

G: In this case, Huss, Jerome, Wycliffe, Luther, Melanchthon, William Miller and a great host of others, including the majority of "saints" in the church today, never ever experienced "abiding in Jesus." Perhaps this great host also includes Ellen White, who never fully understood some truths that affected her lifestyle. I cannot accept this view, Mike. You need to temper it with some additional information (truths). There is a great difference between choosing to sin (voluntary, willful sin) and sinning ignorantly (involuntarily, without knowledge). It is not possible to abide in Jesus while knowingly going against His law. But it is possible to abide in Him while involuntarily ignorant of some portions of His law, portions against which one may be sinning ignorantly.

To me, Mrs. White says that to abide in Christ, we must have His Word in our hearts. She further explains that experience of His Word entering our hearts in terms of "light" which we do not reject, but cherish and follow. Yet she is careful to speak of this following as "following the light just as far as it shines upon our pathway." In other words, we are not accountable to follow light which we do not have. We have not other human ability beyond that which is given us, and if God Himself will not present all of the light to us, how shall we follow it all?

God cannot, and does not, reveal all of the truth to our minds at once. If He did, we would either reject it, or perish outright. We are not yet able to bear it. This being the case, I can be nearly certain that I am sinning in unknown ways, along with any known sins I may have in my life. According to you, then, I could not possibly have any hope of "abiding in Jesus." Do you think you "abide in Jesus?"

I read that verse to mean when we are abiding in Jesus we do not choose to sin. This is not quite the same as we do not sin.

Does the light Jesus withhold result in defective traits of character?

Or is she referring to light that has no bearing on character development (i.e. 2300 days, etc).

Are certain cultivated sinful traits of character overlooked to be dealt with later on when the sinner/believer is strong enough to deal with it?

Good point. The various versions of the word "sin" (sins, sinning, sinned, wickedness, unholiness, unrighteousness, etc) can be used as a verb and a noun. Please label which is which in the following passage:

1 John
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Also, please explain the difference, as it pertains to daily life and the final judgment, between committing sin and having sin.

Is having sin the same thing as knowingly committing sin or ignorantly committing sin?

Did Jesus have to shed His blood to atone for the sin we have?

Is that another one? Or can you explain how not choosing to do something is different than not doing it?

When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service and he makes up for the deficiency with his own divine merit; for he is the source of every right impulse. {OW, December 1, 1909 par. 10}

When Jesus chose to withhold light from people in the past did it result in them sinning?

Please name examples of truth that Jesus chooses nowadays to withhold from people.

Does withholding truth and the inevitable sinning result in defective traits of character?

God leads His people on, step by step. {CCh 55.1}

The entrance of God's word is the application of divine truth to the heart, purifying and refining the soul through the agency of the Holy Spirit. The faculties devoted unreservedly to God, under the guidance of the divine Spirit, develop steadily and harmoniously.
Devotion and piety establish so close a relation between Jesus and His disciples that the Christian becomes like Him. Through the power of God, his weak, vacillating character becomes changed to one of strength and steadfastness. He becomes a person of sound principle, clear perception, and reliable, well-balanced judgment.
Having a connection with God, the source of light and understanding, his views, unbiased by his own preconceived opinions, become broader, his discernment more penetrative and farseeing. The knowledge of God, the understanding of His revealed will, as far as human minds can grasp it, will, when received into the character, make efficient men. {CT 37.3}

There can be no life without growth. The plant must either grow or die. As its growth is silent and imperceptible, but continuous, so is the growth of character. At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be constant advancement. {CG 162.3}

G: I read that verse to mean when we are abiding in Jesus we do not choose to sin. This is not quite the same as we do not sin.

k: Is that another one? Or can you explain how not choosing to do something is different than not doing it?

G: Sure. Not choosing to steal from anyone is different than ignorantly stealing from God because I didn't know about tithing.

7:7 What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

Mike, I believe Jesus withheld light in the past, not because it would result in them sinning, but in spite of the fact that they were already sinning--because He would have lost them forever had He revealed all at once.

You're a church pastor, right? When you are teaching a new believer, do you "give it to them with both barrels?" In other words, do you make sure they know everything that they ought to know (according to you) right away, immediately if not sooner? You tell them at the funeral that their loved one is not in heaven, but his probation has closed and it will no longer be possible to pray for him or do anything that might lead him to heaven? Do you tell them, before their faith has grasped what God can do for them, that becoming an Adventist means they must pay a tithe of all they have to the church?

What is most important? LOVE. When we love God, obeying Him is a joy. But we won't love Him if we perceive Him to be overly demanding. Truth is powerful medicine--given too much at once, it will kill the patient. Many reject God for perceiving that He demands too much. I just met with such an individual yesterday while standing in line to have my passport inspected. The man was from Germany. He was supposedly Lutheran, but had given up all organized religion as having too many rules. In his case, I don't think he was beyond rescue...unfortunately, I won't likely have contact with him again, or enough to dissuade him from his faulty ideas.

Lies certainly kill. But so can truth. Truth must be applied judiciously, and a little at a time.

Mike, relative to truth that Jesus is withholding nowadays from people, how would I know? If it is being withheld, I am also ignorant of it. Think you that I am a prophet who has been shown something that I am also withholding from others? However, I believe one of these "truths" may involve the details of what is to come in the troubles ahead. New converts might be frightened away to learn things like what their obedience will cost them. At the right time, strength will be given them to endure the trial. Right now, many are unprepared. Is it a sin to be "unprepared" for something yet future? Tell me, is it a sin to be "weak?"

As for withholding truth resulting in defects of character, I do not believe that it does. The defects are already there. They could not possibly be healed by a fuller revelation, or if they could, God would not withhold the cure. The Master Physician knows what the dosage of the Truth medicine needs to be, and this is age- and weight-adjusted (think of faith) to the exact amount the patient is able to tolerate.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

M: Arnold, it is a challenge to agree Jesus withholds truth that results in believers developing sinful traits of character. It also difficult to agree Jesus shed His blood to atone for sins we resist and refuse to commit.

A: Then it is fortunate that I said neither of those things.

We are born carnal.

dedication - what kind of body did Christ have? A perfect body or a "sinful" body?

As for "A sudden DNA change would require God to recreate Adam and Eve into carnal beings by changing the genetic codes in their bodies", that would mean that God is the author of sin and He is not.

Let me ask a question, is a viral infection a "sudden DNA change"? Or is it a "progressive DNA change"? It is not the latter.

Christ's physical body came from the DNA passed down from King David and the line of descendants to Mary. He was fully human, "tempted in all points as we are".

But His mind was completely surrendered to the Holy Spirit and to God from the very beginning. He was born of the Spirit from birth, He didn't need to be "born again" of the spirit, like we must.

In this sense He was not altogether like us, for we must be born again of the Spirit.

I agree -- and I don't think there was a "sudden DNA change" either. 

A viral infection is when a foreign substance attacks our cells, and the body's immune system has to fight it off to restore health. While sin is often compared to a virus, due to its destructive effects on both our spirituality and health, it is not literally a virus. Therefore I really do not see approaching this symbolic representation in an absolute literal way.

Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. {16MR 115.3}...

By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3} ...

The enmity put between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman was supernatural. {16MR 118.1}...

Everything had been transformed by the working of the arts of Satan. {16MR 122.3}

He was born of the Holy Ghost. In other words, Jesus Christ was born again. He came from heaven, God's first-born, to the earth, and was born again. But all in Christ's work goes by opposites for us: he, the sinless one, was made to be sin, in order that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. He, the living one, the prince and author of life, died that we might live. He whose goings forth have been from the days of eternity, the first-born of God, was born again, in order that we might be born again. {August 1, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 487.2}

If Jesus Christ had never been born again, could you and I have ever been born again?—No. But he was born again, from the world of righteousness into the world of sin; that we might be born again, from the world of sin into the world of righteousness. He was born again, and was made partaker of the human nature, that we might be born again, and so made partakers of the divine nature. He was born again, unto earth, unto sin, and unto man, that we might be born again unto heaven, unto righteousness, and unto God. {August 1, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 487.3}

The forgiveness of sins is not the sole result of the death of Jesus. He made the infinite sacrifice, not only that sin might be removed, but that human nature might be restored, rebeautified, reconstructed from its ruins, and made fit for the presence of God.  {5T 537.1}

If those who speak so freely of perfection in the flesh, could see things in the true light, they would recoil with horror from their presumptuous ideas. {2SM 32.2}

In this work we are to be laborers together with God. Much may be done to restore the moral image of God in man, to improve the physical, mental, and moral capabilities. Great changes can be made in the physical system by obeying the laws of God and bringing into the body nothing that defiles. And while we cannot claim perfection of the flesh, we may have Christian perfection of the soul.

When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21). . . .  {2SM 33.3}

All come forth from their graves the same in stature as when they entered the tomb. Adam, who stands among the risen throng, is of lofty height and majestic form, in stature but little below the Son of God. He presents a marked contrast to the people of later generations; in this one respect is shown the great degeneracy of the race. But all arise with the freshness and vigor of eternal youth. In the beginning, man was created in the likeness of God, not only in character, but in form and feature. Sin defaced and almost obliterated the divine image; but Christ came to restore that which had been lost. He will change our vile bodies and fashion them like unto His glorious body. The mortal, corruptible form, devoid of comeliness, once polluted with sin, becomes perfect, beautiful, and immortal. All blemishes and deformities are left in the grave. Restored to the tree of life in the long-lost Eden, the redeemed will "grow up" (Malachi 4:2) to the full stature of the race in its primeval glory. The last lingering traces of the curse of sin will be removed, and Christ's faithful ones will appear in "the beauty of the Lord our God," in mind and soul and body reflecting the perfect image of their Lord. Oh, wonderful redemption! long talked of, long hoped for, contemplated with eager anticipation, but never fully understood. {GC 644.3}

Do believers sin and not sin simultaneously? Are they righteous and unrighteous at the same time? Can they mature in the fruits of the Spirit and cultivate sinful traits of character in the same instant?