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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15730
09/28/05 06:16 PM
09/28/05 06:16 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom:So if an unbeliever overcomes some temptation, he owes the victory to Christ.
Mike:I disagree. Satan can help people overcome the unholy clamorings generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature.
Tom:If we can get victory to overcome sin from Satan, what do we need Christ for? I contend that NO sin, NO temptation can be overcome except through Christ. This is easily supported from inspiration. Do you disagree?
I'll treat Paul in Romans 7 separately.
Can you provide some evidence for the assertion that we can gain victory of temptation through Satan? This is a fantastic theory to me. Perhaps I have misunderstood your meaning here.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15731
09/28/05 06:31 PM
09/28/05 06:31 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike, it does not appear to me that you are candidly considering what EGW wrote. Here's the text again. quote:
Paul realized his weakness, and well he might distrust his own strength. Referring to the law, he says, ‘The commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.’ He had trusted in the deeds of the law. He says, concerning his own outward life, that as ‘touching the law’ he was ‘blameless;’ and he put his trust in his own righteousness. But when the mirror of the law was held up before him, and he saw himself as God saw him, full of mistakes, stained with sin, he cried out, ‘O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?’ Paul beheld the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. He heard the voice of Christ saying, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me.’ He determined to avail himself of the benefits of saving grace, to become dead to trespasses and sins, to have his guilt washed away in the blood of Christ, to be clothed with Christ's righteousness, to become a branch of the Living Vine.” {ST, November 24, 1890 par. 6}
She writes:
1)Paul realized his weakness.
2)He had trusted to the deeds of the law.
3)He had put his trust in his own righteousness
4)Through the mirror of the law, he became aware of his condition and cried out "wretched man that I am" etc.
5)He availed himself of the benefits of saving grace to become dead to trespasses and sin.
Considering step 5), we see that Paul:
a)Availed himself of saving grace.
b)Became dead to trespasses and sin.
So before step 5), as he was uttering the word "Wretched man ...", he was in a state of:
a)Not having availed himself of saving grace.
b)Not being dead to trespasses and sin.
IOW, he was in a lost condition. Considering items 1) through 3) itemized above serves to make this even clearer yet, if that's possible.
You entire argument, it appears to me, seems predicated on the assumption that a non-converted man would not cry out "Oh wretched man that I am; who can deliver me from this body of death!"; that he would not delight to serve the law with his mind. I can tell you be personal experience that your assumption here is incorrect. I have been in exactly this position; i.e. a non-converted SDA loving the law with my mind and wanting to do what was right, but unable to do it. Like Paul, I availed myself of grace, and having passed from unbelief to faith, was delivered from the bondage Paul is speaking of.
There are many others who could provide similar testimonies. It is possible to desire to server the law with the mind while being unconverted, as many SDA's and Jews, to name just two classes of people, know.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15732
09/28/05 08:50 PM
09/28/05 08:50 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
quote:
So if an unbeliever overcomes some temptation, he owes the victory to Christ.
I disagree. Satan can help people overcome the unholy clamorings generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature. “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
This reminds me of a passage from Matthew 12: quote:
22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said,"It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Is sin overcome by Jesus, has the Kingdom of God come, or is satan divided by both causing and removing sin?
It seems to me that if sin is overcome by the blood of Jesus but is attributed to satan, this would have some very serious consequences, eternal consequences...
What do you think?
/Thomas
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15733
09/29/05 08:09 PM
09/29/05 08:09 PM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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I'm just wondering --
Do we as Seventh-day Adventists believe in "once saved, always saved"?
That is -- do we believe that once we reach the Romans 8 state of "living by the spirit" instead of "living according to the flesh" does that mean we will never have the battles of Romans 7?
Romans 7 obviously portrays A BELIEVER -- this man knows what is right,(7:16) he delights in the law of God, (7:22) with his mind he wants to serve God.(7:18)
The problem is explained by Paul --
In Romans 7 he is trying to obey BY HIS WILL
In Romans 8 the Holy Spirit is living in Him and by the Spirit he puts to death the deeds of the body.
That is --we MUST BE CONNECTED TO SPIRITUAL POWER.
This is not just a connection we set up in one moment in our lives and we are "saved" from that point on--
This is something that must be done DAILY!
Only as we daily yield self to Christ and His spirit will we have victory.
As soon as we think we are "saved" and beyond Romans 7 problems, and no longer have a battle to fight against sin-- we have simply slipped into the typical Laodicean state and think we have arrived -- we will stop living by the Spirit and start depending again upon the flesh and our own "will" and experience the failure of Romans 7 instead of the victories of Romans 8.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15734
09/29/05 10:32 PM
09/29/05 10:32 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I had the experience of Romans 7 before being converted. The Spirit of Prophesy quotes indicate Paul did to. (See 2 posts above yours)
I agree with your point that a converted person can have the experience of Romans 7. Romans 7 describes the experience of unbelief, Romans 8 of faith. A converted person can not exercise faith just as well as a non-converted one.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15735
10/01/05 02:10 AM
10/01/05 02:10 AM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The following passage implies that Satan will use professing Christians and Christianity to deceive people. He doesn’t actually help unconverted people overcome sin in the same way Jesus helps faithful believers overcome.
Satan appears as an angel of light. He will also personate the return of Christ. His goal is to convert the entire world to his “new and more exalted system of religious faith.” That’s what the counterfeit is all about. The “false revival”, that precedes the genuine, is Satan’s way of making people think they are serving Jesus. It’s the “lie” Paul referred in 2 Thes.
GC 588, 589
The line of distinction between professed Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable. Church members love what the world loves and are ready to join with them, and Satan determines to unite them in one body and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of spiritualism. Papists, who boast of miracles as a certain sign of the true church, will be readily deceived by this wonder-working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deluded. Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium. {GC 588.3}
Through spiritualism, Satan appears as a benefactor of the race, healing the diseases of the people, and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith; but at the same time he works as a destroyer. His temptations are leading multitudes to ruin. Intemperance dethrones reason; sensual indulgence, strife, and bloodshed follow. Satan delights in war, for it excites the worst passions of the soul and then sweeps into eternity its victims steeped in vice and blood. It is his object to incite the nations to war against one another, for he can thus divert the minds of the people from the work of preparation to stand in the day of God. {GC 589.1}
Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15736
10/01/05 02:15 AM
10/01/05 02:15 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, I agree with Dedication that Paul is talking about a converted believer in Rom 7. He is also talking about a born again Christian in Rom 6 and 8.
Again, the only thing the sin that dwells in our flesh can do is generate and communicate to our new man mind unholy thoughts and feelings in the form of temptations. It cannot commit a sin.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15737
10/01/05 03:45 AM
10/01/05 03:45 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Did you notice the post I made just above västergötland's? This post laid out a logical argument based on 5 points from the SOP quote given. The argument makes it as clear that this is referring to Paul's experience before he was converted, doesn't it? If no, why not?
Regarding Satan helping people overcome sin, do you see the philosophical and theological problems with this position? västergötland pointed out some. His points are well taken, it seems to me. Do you disagree?
In your response, you provided no evidence that Satan helps anyone overcome sin. He is simply leading people deeper into sin by his deceptions. How could he do anything other than this?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15738
10/01/05 09:13 AM
10/01/05 09:13 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Romans 7 obviously portrays A BELIEVER -- this man knows what is right,(7:16) he delights in the law of God, (7:22) with his mind he wants to serve God.(7:18)
The problem is explained by Paul --
In Romans 7 he is trying to obey BY HIS WILL
In Romans 8 the Holy Spirit is living in Him and by the Spirit he puts to death the deeds of the body.
Romans 7 is Religion
Romans 8 is Godliness
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15739
10/01/05 09:25 AM
10/01/05 09:25 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
1)Paul realized his weakness.
2)He had trusted to the deeds of the law.
3)He had put his trust in his own righteousness
4)Through the mirror of the law, he became aware of his condition and cried out "wretched man that I am" etc.
5)He availed himself of the benefits of saving grace to become dead to trespasses and sin.
Considering step 5), we see that Paul:
a)Availed himself of saving grace.
b)Became dead to trespasses and sin.
So before step 5), as he was uttering the word "Wretched man ...", he was in a state of:
a)Not having availed himself of saving grace.
b)Not being dead to trespasses and sin.
Amen, Tom.
This should be good news, for there is hope for the "wretched man". One need not remain the "wretched man" but avail himself of God's grace and be set free from his "wretchedness" to live by the spirit.
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