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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15720
09/24/05 10:31 PM
09/24/05 10:31 PM
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OP
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quote:
Anybody can la[y] hold of God's power to overcome evil.
Tom, if an unbeliever can experience victory over sin, self, and Satan by the same power that believers do why, then, do people need to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour?
quote:
But until one has committed the unpardonable sin, God continues to work, and God is able to give even unbelievers victories, to the extent that the[y] allow Him to work in their lives.
Tom, how do unbelievers allow God, whose power and existence they deny, to work in their lives?
I’m also happy when we agree on things as important as correctly understanding the origin of internal temptations. It’s too bad we do not agree on Romans 7. Where else is this insight that we agree on explained in the Bible or the SOP?
Paul wrote, “Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” Please explain what you think Paul meant when he penned, “sin that dwelleth in me.”
When Paul said, “For I delight in the law of God after the inward man”, was he talking about pre- or post-conversion?
And, when he wrote, “So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin”, was he talking about pre- or post-conversion?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15721
09/25/05 04:14 AM
09/25/05 04:14 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Let's consider the case of a man who is married, but has not committed his life to Christ. He is tempted to commit adultery. He is strongly tempted, but he is convinced it is wrong. He prays to God for help. He chooses to resist the temptation. Scenarios like this play out all the time.
I have a friend who is now an Adventist. He was formerly an alcholic. He became convinced he had to stop drinking. He prayed for help, and stopped. Later on he committed his life to Christ.
Just because a person lays hold of Christ's power to overcome a given sin, does not mean that they have been reconciled to God. The reason people need Christ is to be reconciled to God.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15722
09/25/05 04:26 AM
09/25/05 04:26 AM
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Mike: Where else is this insight that we agree on explained in the Bible or the SOP?
Tom: In the SOP, you've quoted some references yourself. In the Bible, in the life of Christ we see the principle. Ps. 40:12 is an example. A number of the psalms bring out Christ's battles with the flesh. Also John brings out the principle. Galatians 5 is another text that comes to mind. This isn't to minimize Romans 7, however.
Mike:Paul wrote, “Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” Please explain what you think Paul meant when he penned, “sin that dwelleth in me.”
Tom:I think he's referring to his inherited and cultivate tendencies to evil.
Mike:When Paul said, “For I delight in the law of God after the inward man”, was he talking about pre- or post-conversion?
Tom:Pre. It's like an SDA who's gone to church all his life but never been converted. He knows the law, but not Christ. Paul, as a Jew, knew the law. But he didn't know Christ.
Mike:And, when he wrote, “So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin”, was he talking about pre- or post-conversion?
Tom:Pre. Again, he knew the law, like a non-converted SDA does, so with his mind he served the law, meaning that he recognized its correcness. However, not having a connection with Christ, to use your language, he was unable to keep it. So he was miserable. Recognizing the rightness of the law, all he could do was experience its condemnation.
Notice that it was the law against coveting that did him in. All the other commandments could be "kept" by observing outward forms, but the law against coveting was entirely internal; no way to fake that. So Paul was convicted that he was a sinner, and was miserable, even though with his mind he agreed with the law.
There's so many SDA's in this condition, one cannot imagine. They believe EGW was a prophet of God, and are convinced that what she says is right. But they feel totally unable to do all she says. So they don't want to read her writings. The farther away the better. Rather than being the balm in Gilead God designed them to be, they become a thorn in the flesh.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15723
09/25/05 04:46 PM
09/25/05 04:46 PM
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OP
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Tom, you seem convinced that an unconverted person can overcome temptations in the same way Jesus and born again believers do. The Bible says “faith” is the means by which we experience victory. But whatsoever is not of faith is “sin”. God calls all such “righteousnesses” filthy rags. Unbelievers and/or uncommitted believers do not overcome by the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, their so-called victories are filthy rags, no matter how nice the outcome. The only way to overcome is to be first reconciled to God. Also, how can you say an unbeliever overcomes like Jesus did and yet believe Romans 7 describes an unbeliever being unable to recognize and resist temptations? And, how does Galatians 5 spell out the insight we agree upon? quote:
I think he's referring to his inherited and cultivate tendencies to evil.
What is the difference, so far as Romans 7 is concerned, between the two?
Is the “inward man” Paul referred to unconverted?
And how can you believe the saying, “So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin”, means unconverted people serve sin with both their mind and body? I believe he’s explaining the contrast between the desires of the new man mind and the desires of the mind of fallen flesh nature.
I agree with your assessment of half converted SDAs. It is very, very sad.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15724
09/25/05 05:48 PM
09/25/05 05:48 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Wow! Lots of questions! I'll do my best. quote:
Tom, you seem convinced that an unconverted person can overcome temptations in the same way Jesus and born again believers do. The Bible says “faith” is the means by which we experience victory. But whatsoever is not of faith is “sin”. God calls all such “righteousnesses” filthy rags.
Tom:It appears to me you are mixing, or confusing, the ideas of overcoming sin and being reconciled to God by faith. I wasn't suggesting that unbelievers are reconciled to God by overcoming their temptations.
quote:
Unbelievers and/or uncommitted believers do not overcome by the blood of the Lamb.
Tom:Of course they do! How else could they overcome? The only way that good can overcome evil for any human being in any condition is by the grace of God. There is no other way. Unbelievers have no goodness of their own by which they can overcome. They are just as dependent upon God's goodness to resist temptation as believers are. God causes the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust.
quote:
Therefore, their so-called victories are filthy rags, no matter how nice the outcome.
Tom: This is a different issue.
quote:
The only way to overcome is to be first reconciled to God.
Tom:That's not true. I gave specific example to demonstrate this. Alcholoics become sober. Married people resist temptations to adultery. These are examples of overcoming.
quote:
Also, how can you say an unbeliever overcomes like Jesus did and yet believe Romans 7 describes an unbeliever being unable to recognize and resist temptations?
Tom:What?
quote:
And, how does Galatians 5 spell out the insight we agree upon?
Tom:In the same way Romans 7 does. There is a struggle of the Spirit against the flesh. In Galatians 5, the Spirit wins.
Old Tom: I think he's referring to his inherited and cultivate tendencies to evil.
Mike:What is the difference, so far as Romans 7 is concerned, between the two?
Tom:"Sin which dwells in me" encompasses both.
Mike:Is the “inward man” Paul referred to unconverted?
Tom:The inward man could be converted or uncoverted. It's specifically unconverted, like the SDA who knows the law is good, but has never been converted, so he is convicted by it (agrees in his inward man that it is good), but remains unconverted. However the principle is just as true for the one who is converted.
Mike:And how can you believe the saying, “So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin”, means unconverted people serve sin with both their mind and body?
Tom:I never said that.
Mike:I believe he’s explaining the contrast between the desires of the new man mind and the desires of the mind of fallen flesh nature.
Tom:It could include this, but doesn't have to. One who is raised a Jew or SDA would be able to say the things Paul said. One does not have to be converted to have the idea of the law that Paul had.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15725
09/26/05 01:02 PM
09/26/05 01:02 PM
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Okay. Can you elaborate? Your answers were a bit vague. Thank you.
How do these insights fit into the discussion?
SC 18, 19
It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Job 14:4; Romans 8:7. Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness. {SC 18.1}
The Saviour said, "Except a man be born from above," unless he shall receive a new heart, new desires, purposes, and motives, leading to a new life, "he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, margin. The idea that it is necessary only to develop the good that exists in man by nature, is a fatal deception. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:7. Of Christ it is written, "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men"--the only "name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." John 1:4; Acts 4:12. {SC 18.2}
It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. {SC 19.1}
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15726
09/26/05 01:30 PM
09/26/05 01:30 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Here's how they tie in. Here was Paul's situation before being converted: quote:
Paul realized his weakness, and well he might distrust his own strength. Referring to the law, he says, ‘The commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.’ He had trusted in the deeds of the law. He says, concerning his own outward life, that as ‘touching the law’ he was ‘blameless;’ and he put his trust in his own righteousness. But when the mirror of the law was held up before him, and he saw himself as God saw him, full of mistakes, stained with sin, he cried out, ‘O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?’ Paul beheld the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. He heard the voice of Christ saying, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me.’ He determined to avail himself of the benefits of saving grace, to become dead to trespasses and sins, to have his guilt washed away in the blood of Christ, to be clothed with Christ's righteousness, to become a branch of the Living Vine.” {ST, November 24, 1890 par. 6}
Paul determined to avail himself of the benefits of saving grace. He wanted to leave the status of Romans 7, quoted just above (see part in bold).
The following also describes the same situation which Paul was describing in Romans 7:
quote:
It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Job 14:4; Romans 8:7. Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness. {SC 18.1}
Paul did avail himself of the proffered grace, and he passed from the Romans 7 guy to the Romans 8 guy:
quote:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Rom. 8:1)
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15727
09/27/05 01:15 PM
09/27/05 01:15 PM
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OP
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Again, just because Siser White quoted an excerpt from Romans 7 it does not mean she was attempting to explain the meaning of the entire chapter. Nowhere does she comment on verses 15-21, the part of Paul's monologue that we're trying to understand and apply.
It is clear to me, however, that we are not going to see eye to eye on this passage. I have appreciated studying it with you. I'm sure you would agree that Romans 6 and 8 talk about converted Christians who successfully recognize and resist the internally and externally generated temptations that bombard them on a daily basis. So, at least, we agree on the most important aspect.
I am concerned, though, that you believe unconverted people and unbelievers experience victory over temptations in the same way Jesus did.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15728
09/27/05 03:05 PM
09/27/05 03:05 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Mike, you're using different words than I used, words which I would not choose to use myself, so I'm not sure if the thing you are concerned about is something I actually believe.
I believe that God is good to the just and the unjust, and that it is only by virtue of the goodness of God that anybody, whether converted or not, can overcome any temptation. It is the Holy Spirit who leads the non-smoker to quit smoking, and impresses one not to commit adulerty, etc. So if an unbeliever overcomes some temptation, he owes the victory to Christ.
Do you disagree?
Regarding Romans 7, it seems very clear that EGW is presenting Paul as being in an unsaved state, being convicted by the law, and then responding to the grace of God and becoming converted. Do you agree with this?
I don't see how your interpretation or Romans 7, which it appears to me I'm in basic agreement with, in any way hinges on Paul being saved. Actually I don't see how it matters. The important thing is that the Spirit is mightier than the flesh, and we needn't be overcome by sin.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15729
09/28/05 05:26 PM
09/28/05 05:26 PM
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OP
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quote:
So if an unbeliever overcomes some temptation, he owes the victory to Christ.
I disagree. Satan can help people overcome the unholy clamorings generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature. “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
quote:
… EGW is presenting Paul as being in an unsaved state, being convicted by the law, and then responding to the grace of God and becoming converted.
I believe she is using the phrase in verse 24 to explain how Paul felt after he was convicted of the truth, not how he felt beforehand. The expression - “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” - is something that only a converted person would say. The fact she applies it to Paul suggests to me she believes he was converted.
Whether we agree on this point or not doesn’t change the fact she wasn’t attempting to explain verses 17-20. Extracting a phrase from Romans 7 doesn’t mean she was providing an inspired commentary on the entire chapter. Do you agree?
The reason why I believe it is important to know whether or not Paul was describing a pre- or post-converted experience is because it makes all the difference in the world interpreting verses 17-20. It is obvious to me that the phrase - “Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” - is referring to the desires of the flesh versus the desires of the new man.
The “sin that dwelleth in me” can only be referring to our fallen flesh nature. Unconverted people are unconcerned about the differences between the desires of their flesh and the desires of the new man. Why? They haven't received the mind of the new man. Their still walking in the mind of the old man, which is not subject to the law of God.
The war that wages within the heart of believers between the desires of the flesh and desires of the new man mind does not exist within unbelievers. That's why Romans 7 cannot be talking about unconverted people.
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