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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15750
10/04/05 10:57 PM
10/04/05 10:57 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote: I do not see them as long drawn out steps. I see them happening simultaneously when he met Jesus on the road to Damascus, and strengthening throughout his life as his love and repentance deepened.
The Spirit of Prophesy is relating Romans 7 to what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus. The argument I presented had nothing to do with the length of the steps. It had to do with the fact that Sister White made the following points:
quote:
1)Paul realized his weakness. 2)He had trusted to the deeds of the law. 3)He had put his trust in his own righteousness 4)Through the mirror of the law, he became aware of his condition and cried out "wretched man that I am" etc. 5)He availed himself of the benefits of saving grace to become dead to trespasses and sin.
Here's what she wrote:
quote: Paul realized his weakness, and well he might distrust his own strength. Referring to the law, he says, "The commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." He had trusted in the deeds of the law. He says, concerning his own outward life, that as "touching the law" he was "blameless;" and he put his trust in his own righteousness. But when the mirror of the law was held up before him, and he saw himself as God saw him, full of mistakes, stained with sin, he cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" {ST, November 24, 1890 par. 6}
I bolded the part about the law being a mirror. When Paul saw the truth, he was led to cry out, "O wretched man that I am!" etc. This is clearly unconverted Paul, because it was AFTER this that the following happened:
quote: Paul beheld the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. He heard the voice of Christ saying, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me." He determined to avail himself of the benefits of saving grace, to become dead to trespasses and sins, to have his guilt washed away in the blood of Christ, to be clothed with Christ's righteousness, to become a branch of the Living Vine.(ST ref as above, par7)
So the order goes: 1)Paul trusts to the deeds of the law. 2)The law reveals his character to himself. 3)He cries out for deliverance. 4)He avails himself of the benefits of saving grace.
The fact that he availed himself of saving grace AFTER he cried out "O wretched man that I am!" shows that at the time he cried out "O wretched man" he was unsaved.
Don't you agree? If not, why not?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15751
10/04/05 11:01 PM
10/04/05 11:01 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thomas, I agree with the points of your post. Refusing to believe the truth puts us into position to where we are poised to believe a lie. If we believe that God is Satan, how can God possibly help us?
This is the unpardonable sin, not for any arbitrary reason (God would save us if He could -- this is His character), but simply for the reason that if we attribute the voice of God as the voice of Satan (the reverse is not the unpardonable sin, because we do that all the time -- that is, we fall for Satan's efforts to disguise himself as God; Satan is very clever) then what means does He have to communicate with us?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15752
10/06/05 02:16 AM
10/06/05 02:16 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I disagree. Why? Because an unconverted person, or a half converted person, would not think to utter the words recorded in Rom 7:24. In Paul's case, conviction and conversion occurred at the same time.
Sister White did not try to explain or interpret Rom 7:17-20. Quotinging an expression from verse 24 is not same as explaining verses 17-20. She did not describe a step by step progression in the way you are.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15753
10/05/05 11:44 PM
10/05/05 11:44 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I disagree. Why? Because an unconverted person, or a half converted person, would not think to utter the words recorded in Rom 7:24. In Paul's case, conviction and conversion occurred at the same time. You seem to be basing your entire interpretation on the presupposition that an unconverted or half converted person would not think to utter the words recorded in Rom. 7:24. I know for as an absolute fact by personal experience that what you are asserting is false. Probably Rosangela could attest to this as well. So what you are asserting not only has the problem of disagreeing with what appears to me to be the natural flow of the words of inspiration, it disagrees with actual experience. quote: Sister White did not try to explain or interpret Rom 7:17-20. Quotinging an expression from verse 24 is not same as explaining verses 17-20. She did not describe a step by step progression in the way you are.
She described Paul as unconverted in Romans 7.
quote: Paul realized his weakness, and well he might distrust his own strength. Referring to the law, he says, "The commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." He had trusted in the deeds of the law. He says, concerning his own outward life, that as "touching the law" he was "blameless;" and he put his trust in his own righteousness. But when the mirror of the law was held up before him, and he saw himself as God saw him, full of mistakes, stained with sin, he cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" {ST, November 24, 1890 par. 6}
In the part in bold, Paul is unconverted, isn't he? Not the import of the words "but when". It is at this point that his conviction/conversion began taking place, isn't it? It is after this point that Paul took hold of "saving grace." How could Paul have been saved before availing himself of saving grace?
Do you disagree that Sister White is describing the affect of the law in convicting the unconverted sinner of sin? Don't we clearly have the progression of:
1)Self-righteousness (unsaved) 2)Conviction brought by the law (conviction/conversion starts) 3)Laying hold of the saving grace God provides in Christ (converted)
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15754
10/06/05 09:01 PM
10/06/05 09:01 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote: Originally posted by Tom Ewall: Thomas, I agree with the points of your post. Refusing to believe the truth puts us into position to where we are poised to believe a lie. If we believe that God is Satan, how can God possibly help us?
This is the unpardonable sin, not for any arbitrary reason (God would save us if He could -- this is His character), but simply for the reason that if we attribute the voice of God as the voice of Satan (the reverse is not the unpardonable sin, because we do that all the time -- that is, we fall for Satan's efforts to disguise himself as God; Satan is very clever) then what means does He have to communicate with us?
And this is a great danger, especially for anyone who is in the habbit of erring on the "safe side". Since satan sometimes suceeds in disguising himself as God, if we then assume that it is safer to allways assume it is satan and therefore not listen when it is God. Bible says that the sheep know the voice of the sheepherd. Our only safety is in knowing Jesus.
/Thomas
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15755
10/08/05 01:52 AM
10/08/05 01:52 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, no unconverted person can repeat those words AND mean it like Paul did. Yes, conviction precedes conversion, but I believe we are first attracted to Jesus, then His law.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15756
10/08/05 03:22 AM
10/08/05 03:22 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike, I'm telling you from personal experience that one can say and mean Paul's words and not be converted. I don't know how you can controvert that. I'm telling you something I know first hand. (I suspect Rosangela could say the same thing, based on some things she's written.)
I person can be convicted for a long, long time before acting on thst conviction. Some never do. Being convicted is not the same thing as being converted.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15757
10/08/05 03:29 PM
10/08/05 03:29 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Do you really believe people can repeat those words like Paul did, in the way he did, just like he did, and not be converted? I hope you understand that I'm referring to a specific type of person - like Sister White did when she quoted Rom 7:24. Do you think you had the exact same thoughts and feelings Paul did when you repeated those words for so many unconverted years?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15758
10/08/05 05:18 PM
10/08/05 05:18 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Mike
Seriously, if you cant trust Tom to give a honest personal testimony, what foundation do you have left to continue talking with him? Do you trust him to tell the truth or do you doubt his integrity?`
/Thomas
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15759
10/08/05 11:10 PM
10/08/05 11:10 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote: Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
He who is looking for "who" shall deliver, has not yet discovered the "who".
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