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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15740
10/02/05 01:57 PM
10/02/05 01:57 PM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Southwest USA
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Tom, no, I do not believe the SOP quotes teach that Romans 7 is an unconverted person. Only a converted person can have hope that Jesus will one day return and replace his sinful flesh nature with a sinless one. In repsonse to your other questions I am reposting an earlier post: quote:
The following passage implies that Satan will use professing Christians and Christianity to deceive people. He doesn’t actually help unconverted people overcome sin in the same way Jesus helps faithful believers overcome.
Satan appears as an angel of light. He will also personate the return of Christ. His goal is to convert the entire world to his “new and more exalted system of religious faith.” That’s what the counterfeit is all about. The “false revival”, that precedes the genuine, is Satan’s way of making people think they are serving Jesus. It’s the “lie” Paul referred in 2 Thes.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15741
10/02/05 05:00 PM
10/02/05 05:00 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike:Tom, no, I do not believe the SOP quotes teach that Romans 7 is an unconverted person. Only a converted person can have hope that Jesus will one day return and replace his sinful flesh nature with a sinless one. Mike, what I'm asking you to do, if you would (please!) is to actually consider my point by point argument and address it; not simply repeat what you think. I already know what you think from what you posted previously. I'm interested in your response to my argument. Mike:In repsonse to your other questions I am reposting an earlier post: Tom:It was in response to this post that I wrote that Satan, from what you posted, does not give anyone victory from sin, but rather leads them further into sin. If you will read what you posted, you will see that this it was it says. For example: quote:
His goal is to convert the entire world to his “new and more exalted system of religious faith.”
This "new and more exalted system" is nothing but sin, so Satan in "converting" people is simply leading them deeper into sin.
I asked you the question if you see philosophical and theological problems with the idea that Satan helps us overcome sin. Thomas pointed out some problems in his post. Please consider the points he made and respond (by respond, I don't mean repeat what you think, but indicate if you agree with what he wrote, and if not, why not).
Thank you.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15742
10/02/05 05:39 PM
10/02/05 05:39 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
No, I do not believe the SOP quotes teach that Romans 7 is an unconverted person.
It is a religious person, not a converted person.
quote:
Only a converted person can have hope that Jesus will one day return and replace his sinful flesh nature with a sinless one.
Only a religious person can do that; a converted person already has deliverance and victory over the sinful flesh nature. The flesh is still there, but it does not have the power of Romans 7, rather the spirit of life of Romans 8 rules.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15743
10/02/05 05:54 PM
10/02/05 05:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
It is a religious person, not a converted person.
That's a good way of putting it.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15744
10/02/05 08:30 PM
10/02/05 08:30 PM
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Global Moderator
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Posts: 6,705
Canada
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Yes, now it's starting to sound right.
Romans 7 is a person who believes in God's Way with his mind but has not yet tapped into the power of the cross.
Like our Sabbath School lesson last week explained -- he's probably been baptised into the baptism of John, (repentence) but has not yet received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15745
10/04/05 02:20 AM
10/04/05 02:20 AM
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OP
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Okay, here's why I do not believe Sister White's use of Rom 7:24 implies Paul was an unconverted religious person. Only a converted religious person cries out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" The unconverted religious person "knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." So, Rom 7:24 are words and sentiments that wouldn't occur to him or her. Before Paul was born again he too believed, "I was alive without the law." It didn't occur to him that he was "dead in trespasses and sins."
“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (Rom 7:5) The expression, the “motions of sin”, is referring to the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated to the mind by fallen flesh nature. The “works of the flesh” mentioned in Gal 5:19 is referring to the same dynamics.
And, the expression, the “sin that dwelleth in me… (that is, in my flesh,)” is also referring to the same unholy thoughts and feelings produced by fallen flesh nature. Since Paul says, “Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me”, it is obvious, to me, that he is talking about the temptations generated by fallen flesh nature – not sinning. Only a converted religious person would care or think to say, “It is no more I that do it.”
In other words, only a born again believer would bother to account for the existence and presence of post-conversion internally generated temptations. An unconverted religious person wouldn’t care. Remember, they’re blind. “But he that lacketh these things [i.e., the fruits of the Spirit] is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.” (2 Peter 1:9)
I don't know about anyone else, but I am very thankful that Paul took the time, that is, that the Holy Spirit inspired him, to explain the origin of post-conversion internally produced temptations. Until I learned the truth about it in Rom 7, I used to blame myself for their presence and existence. I used to believe I was guilty of the unholy thoughts and feelings that came into mind. But now I realize they're only temptations, and that so long as I continue to abide in Jesus, and partake of the divine nature, I can recognize and resist them - unto the honor and glory of God.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15746
10/03/05 03:48 PM
10/03/05 03:48 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I'll try again.
I'm not asking you to restate what you think (although this last post you wrote I thought was quite clear, so I'm glad you wrote it -- I'll comment on it later, hopefully after you respond to my request). I'm asking you to respond to my point by point argument.
You still haven't written anything in regards to the 5 point argument I posted, demonstrating why it is clear that the Spirit of Prophesy is referring to Paul as unconverted in Romans 7. Please respond to the points of the argument.
Thank you.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15747
10/03/05 10:00 PM
10/03/05 10:00 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Only a converted religious person cries out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Romans 7 is not a single state of condition.
It is a progression of realizations and effort culminating in the exclamation of the realization of ones state and need of deliverance.
Paul is painting the progression of effort and realization bringing up to the point of conversion. But the new birth follows his realization of his own wretchedness.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15748
10/03/05 10:02 PM
10/03/05 10:02 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
2 Thessalonians 2 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
It looks like this goes well with the words of Jesus that we will know the tree by its fruit. Would evil miracles, signs and wonders decieve Gods people? Surely there are "christians" out there that have not loved the truth but there are also christians who do love the truth. To go back to the Matthew 12 passage, if God is doing good things trough one of His servants but we choose for some reason to attribute it to the devil, isnt this then the sin against the Holy Spirit? If not, then what did Jesus mean in that passage?
/Thomas
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15749
10/04/05 03:27 PM
10/04/05 03:27 PM
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In the cross is an unanswerable argument as to the immutability of the divine law. Looking to Calvary, we can see how vain are man's efforts when devoid of Christ's merit to give them efficiency. The great acquisition to an impenitent world is the cross of Calvary. Paul gloried in the cross, and well he might; for it was here that he humbled himself that he might be lifted up to true greatness. The price paid for his redemption revealed to him the value of his soul. The Son of God had to die for the sins that Paul had committed; the blood shed on the cross was for him, to save him from eternal ruin. The precious blood of Christ was of such value that a full atonement was made for the guilty soul, and this was to Paul his "glory." It was through the blood of Christ that he had redemption, even the forgiveness of sins. {ST, November 24, 1890 par. 5} Paul realized his weakness, and well he might distrust his own strength. Referring to the law, he says, "The commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." He had trusted in the deeds of the law. He says, concerning his own outward life, that as "touching the law" he was "blameless;" and he put his trust in his own righteousness. But when the mirror of the law was held up before him, and he saw himself as God saw him, full of mistakes, stained with sin, he cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" {ST, November 24, 1890 par. 6} Paul beheld the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. He heard the voice of Christ saying, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me." He determined to avail himself of the benefits of saving grace, to become dead to trespasses and sins, to have his guilt washed away in the blood of Christ, to be clothed with Christ's righteousness, to become a branch of the Living Vine. He walked with Christ, and Jesus became to him--not a part of salvation, while his own good deeds were another part, but--his all in all, the first and last and best in everything. He had the faith that draws life from Christ, that enabled him to conform his life to that of the divine example. This faith claims nothing for its possessor because of his righteousness, but claims everything because of the righteousness of Christ. {ST, November 24, 1890 par. 7} quote:
She writes:
1)Paul realized his weakness.
2)He had trusted to the deeds of the law.
3)He had put his trust in his own righteousness
4)Through the mirror of the law, he became aware of his condition and cried out "wretched man that I am" etc.
5)He availed himself of the benefits of saving grace to become dead to trespasses and sin.
Considering step 5), we see that Paul:
a)Availed himself of saving grace.
b)Became dead to trespasses and sin.
So before step 5), as he was uttering the word "Wretched man ...", he was in a state of:
a)Not having availed himself of saving grace.
b)Not being dead to trespasses and sin.
IOW, he was in a lost condition. Considering items 1) through 3) itemized above serves to make this even clearer yet, if that's possible.
I do not see them as long drawn out steps. I see them happening simultaneously when he met Jesus on the road to Damascus, and strengthening throughout his life as his love and repentance deepened.
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