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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15760
10/08/05 11:13 PM
10/08/05 11:13 PM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote: Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Saul was already much troubled while he was fuming wrath - he was kicking against the pricks, and it was hard for him.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15761
10/09/05 01:16 AM
10/09/05 01:16 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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In answer to your question, Mike, yes! I have no doubt I could find many others as well.
How many SDA's are there who know the law is good, and feel condemned by it? Or better yet, how many know that what Sister White wrote is truth, and feel condemned by what she wrote? This is the same principle.
One doesn't have to be converted to feel condemned by the law. John's quote from Acts regarding Paul is an excellent example of the principle. The experience on the Damascus road was not an all of a sudden thing, but God had been working with Saul/Paul for a long time, and things started coming to a head when Stephen was stoned.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15762
10/09/05 01:32 PM
10/09/05 01:32 PM
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OP
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I truly doubt there are half converted SDA's who feel exactly the same way Paul did when he finally uttered those words. In verse 25 he answered his own rhetorical question - Jesus! Jesus is the "who" in verse 24. And Paul knew that when he wrote verse 24.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15763
10/09/05 03:12 PM
10/09/05 03:12 PM
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Of course when Paul wrote Romans, he was long already converted. But he wrote about the time when he was not so. He wrote about the path to conversion.
In Romans 7 he wrote of a time when he was without the Law, then when the Law came in and sin revived, the realization of how sin uses the Law to kill, then of the struggle, agreeing with the law that it is good yet finding no means within himself of living that good. Then he met the Savior and discovered the means of life.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15764
10/09/05 03:51 PM
10/09/05 03:51 PM
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quote: I truly doubt there are half converted SDA's who feel exactly the same way Paul did when he finally uttered those words.
Being a third generation Adventist I can attest to the reality of Romans 7 being that of a lost and unsaved person. I lived Romans 7 for many years in fear of judgment, believing doctrines, not having salvation or the power of living the life, until I discovered my personal Savior, Jesus Christ.
Did I know about Christ? Of course I did. Did I believe? I believed what I was taught. Did I know the Law? Indeed I did, and taught it to others. Did I want to do what was right? Yes, I truly did. Did I find means of living it? No, I found no way of living it.
So I approved of that which is good but lived my own will, plans, ambitions (many of them religious) which I also considered “good” but brought me into all manner of evil.
What made the difference and when?
When I realized my wretched state and stopped trying to perform it. When I stopped trying to fit my will into the mold of the law, but put my will on the altar so that his will may be done in me, then I discovered my personal Savior.
Having been there for many years, I know multitude of SDA’s who are in that state. We ate together, played together, and thought the same. We all expressed the same problems. We thought that was the way it is supposed to be (including pastors). I yearn for them. What is sad is that many do not care enough to resolve the problem.
Half-converted? I do not know of such a thing. I was religious, but not converted; just like Saul.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15765
10/11/05 02:39 AM
10/11/05 02:39 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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So far several of us have shared our personal testimonies, and have attempted to verify it in Romans 7. But who is right? Can we interpret scriptures based on private interpretations? If not, what, then, is the truth about Romans 7?
Since we cannot agree on verse 24, what about verses 17-20?
7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Sister White did not comment on these verses. I do not believe, therefore, that we can base on our interpretation of them on her use of verse 24.
What is the "sin" that dwells in us, that is, in our flesh?
I believe it is referring to the unholy temptations, the sinful thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by our fallen flesh natures. The following quote provides the basis for this belief:
AH 127, 128 The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
In the context of sinful flesh nature, Sister White uses the words: 1) Work, 2) Act, 3) Corrupt Thought, and 4) Temptation. In other words, our fallen flesh nature has the ability to act and work to tempt us with corrupt thoughts. It's the one and only thing it can do.
Paul speaks about the same thing in verses 17-20. The "sin" that dwells in us is what Sister White calls the lower corrupt nature. The "doing" that Paul talks about is the acting and working of our fallen flesh nature to generate and communicate tempting corrupt thoughts.
Do you see what I mean?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15766
10/10/05 04:00 PM
10/10/05 04:00 PM
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Ontario
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quote: Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Paul here speaks of the time when he tried hard to do that which is right by the law, but had not yet discovered the way of righteousness. He could not discover the means of doing that which is good. The Law of sin and death was still at work in him.
In Romans 8 he speaks of his discovery of the way and shares it with us,
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [ October 11, 2005, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15767
10/10/05 04:13 PM
10/10/05 04:13 PM
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quote: What is the "sin" that dwells in us, that is, in our flesh?
All the things you mentioned are but the result of sin in the flesh. Temptations are not sin. But it is the law of sin and death that gives power to sin. The Law of sin and death is disguised in “our righteousness”. As long as the law of sin and death is ruling the how to perform that which is good shall not be found.
The law of sin and death rules in every unconverted person.
What is the Law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus? [ October 11, 2005, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15768
10/11/05 01:40 PM
10/11/05 01:40 PM
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OP
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quote: ... but how to perform that which is good I find not.
This will continue to be true until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh nature with a sinless one. The power to obey does not exist within us, not even after we are born again. To obey we must partake of the divine nature.
quote: All the things you mentioned are but the result of sin in the flesh. Temptations are not sin.
That’s my point. Paul isn’t talking about sinning, he’s talking about the temptations produced by sinful flesh nature. The only thing fallen flesh nature can “do” is tempt us with unholy thoughts and feelings. It cannot commit a sin.
quote: But it is the law of sin and death that gives power to sin. The Law of sin and death is disguised in “our righteousness”. As long as the law of sin and death is ruling the how to perform that which is good shall not be found. The law of sin and death rules in every unconverted person. What is the Law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus?
The power to sin is the power of choice. No one and nothing can force us to sin. The law of sin and death resides within us, within our sinful flesh nature, and, as such, it remains to tempt us until Jesus returns. It is the law of the Spirit of Life in Jesus that empowers us to partake of the divine nature, which, in turn, enables us to imitate the sinless example of Jesus.
quote: In the context of sinful flesh nature, Sister White uses the words: 1) Work, 2) Act, 3) Corrupt Thought, and 4) Temptation. In other words, our fallen flesh nature has the ability to act and work to tempt us with corrupt thoughts. It's the one and only thing it can do. Do you agree?
Paul speaks about the same thing in verses 17-20. The "sin" that dwells in us is what Sister White calls the lower corrupt nature. The "doing" that Paul talks about is the acting and working of our fallen flesh nature to generate and communicate tempting corrupt thoughts. Do you agree?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15769
10/12/05 02:10 AM
10/12/05 02:10 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Here is how an inspired author uses verse 18:
COL 160, 161 At every advance step in Christian experience our repentance will deepen. It is to those whom the Lord has forgiven, to those whom He acknowledges as His people, that He says, "Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight." Eze. 36:31. Again He says, "I will establish My covenant with thee, and thou shalt know that I am the Lord; that thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord God." Eze. 16:62, 63. Then our lips will not be opened in self-glorification. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone. We shall make the apostle's confession our own. "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing." Rom. 7:18. "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Gal. 6:14. {COL 160.3}
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