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Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment [Re: kland] #157798
10/31/13 08:49 PM
10/31/13 08:49 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
kland - Green once claimed that he had pernicious anemia, and that eggs cured it. Was he tested for this? No idea, but eggs will not cure pernicious anemia, because pernicious anemia is not caused by low intake of B12 but lack of intrinsic factor which is necessary for the absorption of B12. Green very well may have had B12 deficiency. That fact does not make all vegans B12 deficient. I have had my B12 measured and that after switching to a plant based diet nearly 7 years before, and my B12 was above normal limits, just barely, but still, not deficient. And I did not take any B12 supplement and that being a reason I wanted to know where I was at. I've looked at this issue from many points, and B12 is not the problem Green would like to make it in the U.S. The biggest issue with Green is the insistence that if people do not eat his diet, then they are brain damaged. This is a violation of EGW's recommendation not to criticize others because their practice is not, in all things, in harmony with his own.

The body of evidence is that a plant based diet simply prepared will reverse and prevent most of our chronic illnesses.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment [Re: APL] #157812
11/01/13 01:57 AM
11/01/13 01:57 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
I don't remember ever saying I had pernicious anemia, but if I did, I should have said megaloblastic anemia. Pernicious anemia is one form of megaloblastic anemia, but there are other forms.

I was never tested, so far as I am aware, specifically for B12. The blood tests were of the more usual variety with such things as MCV, etc. (Note that it was a vegan doctor who ran the blood test on me, and perhaps he knew better than to open the case with B12.) I am not a doctor. It is quite possible that I have not fully understood things in their correct light relative to the diagnoses I was given. I know simply that the vegan doctor who first looked at the test said that there was nothing wrong with me, and that if I was experiencing fatigue, it must be due to lack of exercise. I was, however, not at all short on exercise in that period of my life. It may have been, in fact, one of the most active periods of my life. I was working outdoors half of the day, in addition to other sports activities, hiking, etc. that I enjoyed at that time. I phoned the results of the blood test to another doctor, and received a more correct diagnosis. It was clear that the vegan doctor did not wish to admit that the vegan diet had brought me to such a condition.

Health reform or health deform? Let the reader decide. I know simply that the eggs brought me out of the condition I was in when nothing else could have--a condition I had never experienced prior to becoming vegan, nor have ever experienced after leaving veganism.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment [Re: Green Cochoa] #157818
11/01/13 03:12 AM
11/01/13 03:12 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2021

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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
I should add that I had only early stages. I did not have the condition for an extended period of time. I was vegan for only about 7 months or so when the condition began, and it was quickly arrested with the reintroduction of eggs into my diet. There was never a fully conclusive diagnosis, but I remember that pernicious anemia was the major suspect. In my own later research, I confirmed what others here have suggested, that it likely was not pernicious anemia, but another form of megaloblastic anemia due to B12 deficiency. In any case, eggs "make good blood" according to Mrs. White, and this proved true in my case.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Do not go to extremes in regard to the health reform. Some of our people are very careless in regard to health reform. But because some are far behind, you must not, in order to be an example to them, be an extremist. You must not deprive yourself of that class of food which makes good blood. Your devotion to true principles is leading you to submit yourself to a diet which is giving you an experience that will not recommend health reform. This is your danger. When you see that you are becoming weak physically, it is essential for you to make changes, and at once. Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this. Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. . . . {TSDF 40.4}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment [Re: Green Cochoa] #157821
11/01/13 03:30 AM
11/01/13 03:30 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I don't remember ever saying I had pernicious anemia, but if I did, I should have said megaloblastic anemia. Pernicious anemia is one form of megaloblastic anemia, but there are other forms.

I was never tested, so far as I am aware, specifically for B12. The blood tests were of the more usual variety with such things as MCV, etc. (Note that it was a vegan doctor who ran the blood test on me, and perhaps he knew better than to open the case with B12.) I am not a doctor. It is quite possible that I have not fully understood things in their correct light relative to the diagnoses I was given. I know simply that the vegan doctor who first looked at the test said that there was nothing wrong with me, and that if I was experiencing fatigue, it must be due to lack of exercise. I was, however, not at all short on exercise in that period of my life. It may have been, in fact, one of the most active periods of my life. I was working outdoors half of the day, in addition to other sports activities, hiking, etc. that I enjoyed at that time. I phoned the results of the blood test to another doctor, and received a more correct diagnosis. It was clear that the vegan doctor did not wish to admit that the vegan diet had brought me to such a condition.

Health reform or health deform? Let the reader decide. I know simply that the eggs brought me out of the condition I was in when nothing else could have--a condition I had never experienced prior to becoming vegan, nor have ever experienced after leaving veganism.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
You may not remember, but review message #142051 - 05/05/12 11:21 PM. In it you said, "In my case, the disease had a clinical name: pernicious anemia. It had clinical symptoms like numbness and tingling in the hands, lack of taste, smell, and appetite, memory loss, low energy levels, etc."

We then had a number of message exchanged where you exposed your lack of understanding of the disease processes associated with B12, and I tried to educate you. NOW, you say you were never tested! Amazing.

You then went on in subsequent messages to talk about vegans women and cancer. You recently brought it up again mentioning cervical cancer, though the science is not in your favor as the best study that looks at vegan women have lower incidence of a lower incident of female cancers including cervical, something I note you refuse to acknowledge. From this whole interaction on B12 with you, it is clear you don't know what actually happened to you, you believe that eggs fixed it and that fine for you. But your experience does not equal the experience of others, thus you should follow EGW's directions, "The subject should be studied broadly and deeply, and no one should criticize others because their practice is not, in all things, in harmony with his own."


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment [Re: APL] #157822
11/01/13 03:42 AM
11/01/13 03:42 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

You can be a vegan. I don't criticize you for it. I criticize, rightly, vegans who teach others that they should be vegans too. In our modern Adventist movement, many are taking extreme views on this topic and urging them upon others. I am trying to uphold balance, and to alert people to the fact that we are never counseled to give up milk and eggs until God reveals to us that it is time to do so.

I have asked you several times if God has revealed this to you...and you have not answered. You, as many do, seem to base your diet upon your own opinion of the times. That is between you and God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment [Re: Green Cochoa] #157825
11/01/13 04:29 AM
11/01/13 04:29 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

You can be a vegan. I don't criticize you for it. I criticize, rightly, vegans who teach others that they should be vegans too. In our modern Adventist movement, many are taking extreme views on this topic and urging them upon others. I am trying to uphold balance, and to alert people to the fact that we are never counseled to give up milk and eggs until God reveals to us that it is time to do so.

I have asked you several times if God has revealed this to you...and you have not answered. You, as many do, seem to base your diet upon your own opinion of the times. That is between you and God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Have you taken care of patients with heart disease, kidney disease, strokes, autoimmune disease, gastrointestinal disease, cancers? No. You do not even know what disease you had! "Megaloblastic Anemia" is a description, not a diagnosis. You have not seen people spared the knife because their heart disease is reversed. Autoimmune diseases reversed. Do you want 40 scientific papers on the effect of neuraminic acid 5GC (Neu5Gc) on heart disease, cancer, flu, and e-coli infections? Neu5Gc comes only from animal sources such as milk and red meat. You had a problem, so your problem becomes everyone else's problem. EGW's instruction is to teach everyone to cook without the things you love. I do that. I have 4 physicians right now that I have worked with to help them reverse their heart disease. One will most likely be spared a heart transplant! He has made great improvement already. What is more extreme? Eating right or having your chest cut open and your heart changed out? I think the choice is clear.

Green said, "You can be a vegan. I don't criticize you for it." Ah - would you like for me to quote you some of your past statements? Perhaps the title of this thread would remind you???


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment [Re: APL] #157826
11/01/13 04:44 AM
11/01/13 04:44 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

If you, knowing everything you know and could know about health choose to become deficient in that which you need through extremism, there is one who criticizes you, and it's not me. I have tried here to present the statements. I am not in a position to judge individual choices. But it appears even in your post here that your choices are far from individual. You are teaching others in accordance with your own extreme views.

Mrs. White had something to say about that.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
We appreciate your experience as a physician, and yet I say that milk and eggs should be included in your diet. These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught. {TSDF 49.1}
You are in danger of taking too radical a view of health reform, and of prescribing for yourself a diet that will not sustain you. {TSDF 49.2}
...
God calls upon those for whom Christ died to take proper care of themselves, and set a right example to others. My brother, you are not to make a test for the people of God upon the question of diet; for they will lose confidence in teachings that are strained to the farthest point of extension. The Lord desires His people to be sound on every point in health reform, but we must not go to extremes. {TSDF 49.4}


Mrs. White had a right to say these things which is above my own right to determine for anyone. Do you accept her counsels?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment [Re: APL] #157827
11/01/13 04:49 AM
11/01/13 04:49 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
The body of evidence is that a plant based diet simply prepared will reverse and prevent most of our chronic illnesses.


True statement. I agree with this. In fact, many would do quite well to fast for several days to a week in order to find healing from their chronic illnesses. However, one cannot sustain life long-term by fasting. It might also be that one needs other nutrients like B12 in order to have long-term health, a nutrient which is not available in plant foods.

As to "scientific evidences" for things, consider that scientists did not know that tobacco was bad for you in Mrs. White's day. Doctors sometimes prescribed it as a remedy. But Mrs. White was unscientific. She said it was not healthful. Her words are now proven true. God always knows best. Therefore, as God has instructed us not to give up milk and eggs too early, and that He will tell us when it is time to do so, I wait in faith for that moment, and do not wish to run ahead of my Lord.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment [Re: Green Cochoa] #157833
11/01/13 12:35 PM
11/01/13 12:35 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

If you, knowing everything you know and could know about health choose to become deficient in that which you need through extremism, there is one who criticizes you, and it's not me.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Green - what am I deficient in? I have told you I have been tested and have been found to be high in B12. You have no idea what your B12 level is or was by your own admission. Today we can monitor this particular vitamin by several tests. Did you go back and read our discussion from a year and a half ago? Has your knowledge of the subject improved? It is hard to tell. Your accusations are baseless. EGW's recommendations were balanced. She described those that need to not be forced to give up certain things because of their living conditions. You want to make that apply to all situations. The truth remains, she said to teach ALL how to cook without your beloved food items. YOu have stated you will not follow her advice. Is that wise?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Brain-damaged from Veganism, why vegans have cognitive impairment [Re: Green Cochoa] #157836
11/01/13 01:59 PM
11/01/13 01:59 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I was never tested, so far as I am aware, specifically for B12....
I know simply that the vegan doctor who first looked at the test said that there was nothing wrong with me...
I phoned the results of the blood test to another doctor, and received a more correct diagnosis....
And you know it was right because it agreed with what you wanted?

Quote:
I know simply that the eggs brought me out of the condition I was in when nothing else could have--a condition I had never experienced prior to becoming vegan, nor have ever experienced after leaving veganism.
And that's how you view science is done.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I should add that I had only early stages.
Early stages? Early stages of what? Early stages of lack of eggs?

Quote:
I did not have the condition for an extended period of time. I was vegan for only about 7 months or so when the condition began,
wow. I had no idea B12 deficiency could happen so quickly! not.

Quote:
There was never a fully conclusive diagnosis,
No comment needed there!

Quote:
In any case, eggs "make good blood" according to Mrs. White, and this proved true in my case.
Proved true your view of how science is done?

Quote:
APL,

If you, knowing everything you know and could know about health choose to become deficient in that which you need through extremism, there is one who criticizes you, and it's not me.
And you say not eating eggs is "extremism"?
Seems like you have an extreme view to me!

Quote:
But it appears even in your post here that your choices are far from individual. You are teaching others in accordance with your own extreme views.
His one "extreme views" that you are wrong? I never saw him starting a thread calling others brain damaged. I never saw him spouting out how everyone should give up eggs. I only saw him saying that your extreme views are wrong. And you mean that to mean he is "teaching others" his extreme views? Only view I see is that you are wrong. How can one person be so wrong on so many topics unless they do have a damaged brain.

Quote:
These things cannot at present be dispensed with,

I don't suppose it do any good talking again about "present" and teaching how to cook without, etc. because if you cannot understand "another than Joshua", how could you understand giving up something you want to eat?

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