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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157852
11/01/13 08:16 PM
11/01/13 08:16 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Also notice in this quote from 1 Chronicles 21:12 in the Spirit of Prophecy Vol 1 pg 385 that David had the right to chose whether to have the angel of the Lord execute justice OR "three years of famine, or three months of devastation by your foes while the sword of your enemies".

So there are two different ways that justice can be served. Either fall into the hands of the Lord, or the Lord will allow Satan and your enemies to have their way.

This is the issue at hand.

But in the second resurrection Satan tries to regain his power to destroy but it is taken from him, and at that time ONLY God has the power to destroy. This is when Satan is destroyed, he does not throw himself into the lake of fire.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157853
11/01/13 08:35 PM
11/01/13 08:35 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
In essence Kland and APL are saying that the destroying angel is Satan. That is heresy.
How do God's angels cause destruction?
Originally Posted By: EGW
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. {GC36}
Originally Posted By: EGW
We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {1SM 235.2}


Psalms 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

What event is being talked about here? Interesting...

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

The words spoken to Israel are true today of those who recover health of body or health of soul. "I am the Lord that healeth thee." Exodus 15:26. {MH 113.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157854
11/01/13 09:03 PM
11/01/13 09:03 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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"As the angel of the Lord was on his way to destroy Jerusalem, God bade him stay his work of death.... The angel, clad in warlike garments, with a drawn sword in his hand, stretched out over Jerusalem, is revealed to David, and to those who are with him. David is terribly afraid, yet he cries out in his distress and his compassion for Israel. He begs of God to save the sheep. In anguish he confesses, “I have sinned, and I have done wickedly; but these sheep, what have they done? Let thine hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father’s house.”—The Spirit of Prophecy 1:385, 386. {TA 127.5}

Who do you say is this angel of the Lord APL? Do you say it is Satan?

You take only half of the information and build a conclusion that is flawed.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157855
11/01/13 09:10 PM
11/01/13 09:10 PM
APL  Offline
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Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157858
11/01/13 10:26 PM
11/01/13 10:26 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
In the original creation, everything was very good.
Did God create leprosy? I guess MM you'd say YES. Do you agree? Next question - for what purpose? To torment humans?


Is something missing in the creation story?

Which is more displeasing to the Lord, evolution or teaching that God created evil?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #157859
11/01/13 10:29 PM
11/01/13 10:29 PM
Johann  Offline
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How can the first part of the Great Controversy be less inspired than the last part?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #157862
11/01/13 11:15 PM
11/01/13 11:15 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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APL I see you skipped right past answering my question.

Who is the angel of the Lord that destroyed the first born of Egypt or who had his sword drawn against David when 70,000 men perished?

I already told you I agree with the fact that Satan is given control over the wicked in the last days but you keep asserting that point. Who is the angel of the Lord that destroyed? Who destroys the wicked in the second death?

Last edited by jamesonofthunder; 11/01/13 11:19 PM.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157863
11/01/13 11:22 PM
11/01/13 11:22 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
James - God will not violate His law. The wages of SIN is death. Sin, when it is full grown, brings death. God's wrath is his giving the sinner up, letting them go, this is His strange act, seen only with the death of Christ. Christ answers the question of how God is involved in the second death. Do you believe the Father executed Christ? I certainly hope not! Jesus is the answer.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157864
11/01/13 11:23 PM
11/01/13 11:23 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: jsot
APL I see you skipped right past answering my question.
You skipped mine, in which is also is an answer...


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157865
11/01/13 11:25 PM
11/01/13 11:25 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
USA
There is nothing that was not answered.

Are you going to cover your eyes and ears and deny answering my question?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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