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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15790
10/16/05 12:28 PM
10/16/05 12:28 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Tom, Do you understand the difference between these?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15791
10/17/05 02:24 AM
10/17/05 02:24 AM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Is it not evident here that one can draw near and honour God by what comes from the mind while the heart is removed far.
How can somebody draw near and honour with their mind while removing their heart, unless there is a difference.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15792
10/17/05 02:27 AM
10/17/05 02:27 AM
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Reposted from the bottom of page 4: quote:
Tom and Will, I agree. Both of you should know, by now, that I believe we are born again morally perfect (complete), and that sanctification is the gradual process of maturing morally in the fruits of the Spirit. Like Jesus, we begin morally perfect (complete) and we become morally perfect (mature) as we grow in grace and knowledge.
Daryl, yes, you're right. That's exactly what Sister White wrote:
COL 330
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess [not gradually accumulate] these attributes. {COL 330.2}
DA 676
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one [not one] will be missing. {DA 676.4}
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15793
10/17/05 02:30 AM
10/17/05 02:30 AM
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John, do you believe we are born again morally complete, as stated above in the SOP quotes? Or, do you believe we begin a gradual process of swapping sin for righteousness after we are born again?
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15794
10/16/05 03:00 PM
10/16/05 03:00 PM
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Ontario
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quote:
That which happens to the heart, happens to the mind.
This is true in principle, because the heart governs the mind. The reverse is not necessarily true; because the mind does not govern the heart unless the heart accepts it (but it should not). One can hold things as true in their mind while not receiving it in the heart. That is what the last section of Romans 7 is about.
The heart determines the allegiance, the mind does not. The heart chooses what the mind will think.
Nevertheless, happily, often it can be said (happily I say, because it means that heart and mind are in harmony at such times) that out of the mouth proceed the issues of the heart.
The following is also true, which cannot be said about the mind:
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Even with a desperately deceitful heart, the mind still bears knowledge of truth. One knows what is in one's own mind; but one may not know or understand his own heart.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15795
10/16/05 03:15 PM
10/16/05 03:15 PM
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quote:
John, do you believe we are born again morally complete, as stated above in the SOP quotes? Or, do you believe we begin a gradual process of swapping sin for righteousness after we are born again?
What does this mean to you?
At new birth that which is changed is the spirit or heart. It is changed, because it has a new master. Our spirit becomes united with God’s spirit. On the throne of our being, the shekinah glory has come to abide. The flesh has ceased to have influence over (be the source for) the spirit or heart of man. This is accomplished as we in our spirit/heart believe God and cease to trust either our flesh (lower nature) or our mind (what we think is right/wrong, etc). That is conversion.
Character belongs to the heart and not the mind.
Character determines how you will handle the information in your mind.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15796
10/16/05 04:15 PM
10/16/05 04:15 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Tom, Do you understand the difference between these?
I understand the text to be saying that we are to love God with all our being, including all that is within us, including our affections, emotions, intelligence; whatever it is that constitutes our being.
In general terms I understand the heart in Scripture to refer to the part of man where he does his deep thinking, and to be the center of his emotions. The mind represents the thinking part of man. Strength I understand to mean with all we have. Soul I understand to be the entire man, the whole being.
I don't see this as being an attempt to point out differences to the different aspects of man at all. There is considerable overlap in these terms, it seems to me.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15797
10/16/05 04:27 PM
10/16/05 04:27 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Is it not evident here that one can draw near and honour God by what comes from the mind while the heart is removed far.
How can somebody draw near and honour with their mind while removing their heart, unless there is a difference.
I understand the Isaiah quote to be the saying the same thing as the following from COL:
quote:
No man can of himself understand his errors. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" Jer. 17:9. The lips may express a poverty of soul that the heart does not acknowledge. While speaking to God of poverty of spirit, the heart may be swelling with the conceit of its own superior humility and exalted righteousness. In one way only can a true knowledge of self be obtained. We must behold Christ. (COL 159)
I think this is dealing with two different functions of the mind, as in the Laodecian condition. There is a deception going on, where one knows within one's self what the truth is, but one is not willing to admit it.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15798
10/16/05 04:37 PM
10/16/05 04:37 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom:That which happens to the heart, happens to the mind.
John:This is true in principle, because the heart governs the mind.
Tom:I understand that it is the will which governs the mind. The heart is an expression for the deeper aspects of one's mind, it seems to me. The "heart" deals with mental activity as much as the mind does, but it targets specifically deeper mental activity as well as one's emotions.
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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15799
10/16/05 04:45 PM
10/16/05 04:45 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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John, do you see "will" as synonomous with "heart" and "spirit"? I'm asking this because you wrote some to the effect that the heart governs the mind, whereas I would say the will is the governing power of the mind. I replaced "heart" and "spirit" with "will" below, from something you wrote. Would you see the following as true, and capturing your intent as well? quote:
At new birth that which is changed is the will. It is changed, because it has a new master. Our will becomes united with God’s will. On the throne of our being, the shekinah glory has come to abide. The flesh has ceased to have influence over (be the source for) the will of man. This is accomplished as we will to believe God and cease to trust either our flesh (lower nature) or our mind (what we think is right/wrong, etc). That is conversion.
Character belongs to the will and not the mind.
Character determines how you will handle the information in your mind.
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