|
Forums118
Topics9,232
Posts196,213
Members1,325
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
9 registered members (daylily, TheophilusOne, dedication, Daryl, Karen Y, 4 invisible),
2,502
guests, and 5
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15810
10/18/05 07:22 PM
10/18/05 07:22 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15811
10/18/05 10:55 PM
10/18/05 10:55 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
quote:
I believe the "higher powers of the mind" include all the faculties and attributes we need to reproduce the sinless character of Christ. However, we are unable to employ them unto the honor and glory of God.
Sorry, the structure of your statement leaves to many ambiguities. I have no reference for your terminology. First, "we" do not reproduce the character of Christ. Second, your meaning of the ‘higher mind’ has not been defined, and who or what faculty is the “we” that is able or unable to do it.
quote:
We must first crucify and bury the mind of the old man, then we must receive the implanted mind of the new man, then we must partake of the divine nature - all of which enables God to empower us to use our faculties of mind and body to imitate the example of Jesus.
An utter impossibility in the way you stated it.
quote:
The ability to employ our faculties of mind and body unto the honor and glory God does not, in any way, shape or form, reside within us. It is not something that is latent within us, only awaiting the touch of God to be made available for us to use to imitate the example of Jesus.
The ability to do so is the same ability that has made it possible that man could fall, and the same ability that keeps man in fallen state. It is in the responsibility of man’s will, whom he will trust. So when man will trust God, God will be able to work in him to will and to do of his good pleasure.
quote:
You seem to be saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the "spirit" is an attribute that naturally resides within us,
The spirit is an attribute with which God endowed every free moral being. Without it man would be no more than a robot.
quote:
a powerful faculty that we use to employ our higher powers of the mind to develop our own righteousness.
There is more truth to this than realized.
quote:
But when we're born again, according to what I hear you saying, we are able, through the "spirit", to manage our higher powers of the mind to reproduce the character of Christ.
When we are born again, we by our choice (spirit) have accepted God to be our source. The statement, “Lo, I come to do thy will, my God” becomes the position of our will and faith is placed in God. In other words we no longer trust our selves, or our mind, or our flesh; but have seen that in “me dwells no good thing”. Thus God’s spirit comes to dwell in our heart and we in him. He works in us and we work out what he works in.
quote:
If I'm understanding you correctly, your view of the "spirit" teaches that the power to obey is within us, an attribute or faculty that we can use to develop our own righteousness or the righteousness of Christ.
The power to choose whom to serve (trust/believe) is that of the spirit; by the will we place our faith in whom we will. Whomever we trust, will establish the nature of our righteousness. So yes, our spirit determines our righteousness.
quote:
The power to be like Jesus is in our "spirit".
The question whether Jesus will dwell in our heart or spirit is determined by our spirit.
|
|
|
Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15812
10/19/05 12:42 PM
10/19/05 12:42 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
The ability to do so is the same ability that has made it possible that man could fall, and the same ability that keeps man in fallen state. It is in the responsibility of man’s will, whom he will trust. So when man will trust God, God will be able to work in him to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Piggy-backing on this, the fundamental difficulty God has to deal with in saving man is to get man to trust Him. There is no limit to how deeply God can heal us, if we will trust Him. When man believed Satan's lies about God's character, the chasm of distrust, of unbelief, was formed. How to bridge that chasm? The only way was for the One who knew Him best to become familiar and visible to our eyes, that we might see God as He really is. When we see the truth about God, that enables us to trust Him, which allows Him to heal us.
|
|
|
Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15813
10/19/05 01:24 PM
10/19/05 01:24 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15814
10/19/05 03:04 PM
10/19/05 03:04 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
John, I didn't realize you were using the words "will" and "spirit" synonymously. Where in the Bible or the SOP are these two words used interchangeably?
MH 176
The tempted one needs to understand the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man--the power of decision, of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. Desires for goodness and purity are right, so far as they go; but if we stop here, they avail nothing. Many will go down to ruin while hoping and desiring to overcome their evil propensities. They do not yield the will to God. They do not choose to serve Him. {MH 176.1}
God has given us the power of choice; it is ours to exercise. We cannot change our hearts, we cannot control our thoughts, our impulses, our affections. We cannot make ourselves pure, fit for God's service. But we can choose to serve God, we can give Him our will; then He will work in us to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus our whole nature will be brought under the control of Christ. {MH 176.2}
Through the right exercise of the will, an entire change may be made in the life. By yielding up the will to Christ, we ally ourselves with divine power. We receive strength from above to hold us steadfast. A pure and noble life, a life of victory over appetite and lust, is possible to everyone who will unite his weak, wavering human will to the omnipotent, unwavering will of God. {MH 176.3}
|
|
|
Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15815
10/19/05 05:23 PM
10/19/05 05:23 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
You have the right quotes there, MM.
|
|
|
Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15816
10/19/05 11:56 PM
10/19/05 11:56 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
quote:
John, I didn't realize you were using the words "will" and "spirit" synonymously. Where in the Bible or the SOP are these two words used interchangeably?
The quotes I posted did not use "will" and "spirit" interchangeably. Our will only enables us to permit the Holy Spirit to empower us to use our faculties of mind and body to reproduce the character of Christ. Where does the word "spirit" fit in? Quotes please. Thank you.
COL 69
"When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69.1}
COL 331
But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. {COL 331.1}
Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome. The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God. {COL 331.2}
|
|
|
Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15817
10/20/05 12:48 AM
10/20/05 12:48 AM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
John does not use the words "spirit" and "will" interchangeably. He's explained this, and so have I. He said that "spirit" is comprised of the will and faith (I don't know if "spirit" = "faith" + "will" or "spirit" = "faith" + "will" + other things; perhaps John could comment), so will is a subset of faith. They are not equivalent. He said "faith" and "spirit" are synonymns.
|
|
|
Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15818
10/20/05 11:13 AM
10/20/05 11:13 AM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
quote:
He said "faith" and "spirit" are synonymns.
I think Tom, You meant to say that I said "heart" and "spirit" are synonymous.
|
|
|
Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning?
#15819
10/20/05 11:17 AM
10/20/05 11:17 AM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
From what I have seen in your comments thus far MM, it appears that you have altogether a difficulty relating to the thought that man has a spirit. Is that correct?
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
