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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158501
11/19/13 12:17 AM
11/19/13 12:17 AM
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SDA
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APL, you're unwillingness to answer my questions and address my points is disturbing. M: During His 33 year sojourn on Earth when did Jesus:
1. Punish sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?
2. Punish sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?
3. Command someone like Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because they mistakenly believed killing is right?
A: Over and over we see that the character of the God that worked with the Israelites was like the Christ in the New.
M: Obviously Jesus did none of the things in the NT you believe He did in the OT (referring to the 3 summaries listed above). And yet you insist we must define the Jesus of the OT by the Jesus of the NT. There is a disconnect here.
A: You are right - there is a disconnect. Just so you know, I believe Jesus demonstrated the righteous attributes of the Godhead during His 33 years on Earth. Like you, I don't think He contradicted anything He said, taught, commanded, permitted, or demonstrated in the OT. However, I do believe there are things He did in the OT He didn't do during His 33 years here on Earth. Please explain why you believe Jesus did not do the 3 things listed above while He was here. Do you want the URLs again?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: kland]
#158502
11/19/13 12:36 AM
11/19/13 12:36 AM
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M: Jesus created everything in the Universe - heaven, angels, planets, other beings, earth, plants, animals, humans, water, air, sunshine, fire, etc. He is also the source of life and power of everything He created. They exist and act because He enables them to exist and act. If He ceased to enable them to exist and act they would cease to exist and act - they would vanish, disappear.
K: Ok, but what is the difference between create and employ? I have explained it as best as I can. I lack the ability to explain it to your satisfaction. M: Your knife analogy demonstrates the fact nothing Jesus created can act in accordance with its design and purpose without His constant power and guidance.
K: But what if an evil person took my knife and killed his son? Am I responsible for that or are they? Do you see a difference? Yes, there is a difference. However, Jesus, unlike you, is Lord God Almighty. He can intervene and prevent it (without violating freedom of choice). Things happen because Jesus chooses not to intervene (for reasons that make sense to Him). Jesus created Lucifer and is his source of life. Satan would be unable to do anything if Jesus ceased sustaining him. In addition to this fact, Jesus also permits Satan to cause disease, disaster, and death (within the limits He Himself sets and enforces). Satan can do nothing without Jesus' permission. Whatever Satan does is nothing more than Jesus is willing to allow him to do. M: The outcome of a battle is up to Jesus. He reserves the right to ensure the right side wins. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3} You asked, Who killed King Saul? The answer is, He committed suicide. But the reason he killed himself is because Jesus used the Philistines to defeat him in battle. Jesus took action that resulted in punishment.
K: So that's why you believe that Saul killing himself or God killing him is one and the same. Because God manipulated the environment in such a way as to cause Saul to kill himself? So when Ellen White says Saul added self-murder to his list of sins, you mean that not to be entirely correct because God was partly mostly responsible as He created such a harsh environment for Saul that affected his mental attitude. So it's not really Saul's fault, but God's. God made him do it? I do not agree with your reasoning. The reason King Saul killed himself is because Jesus permitted him to be defeated in battle. It is highly unlikely King Saul would have committed suicide if Jesus had enabled him to win.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158507
11/19/13 04:09 AM
11/19/13 04:09 AM
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Posts: 7,003
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Those who might become co-laborers with Christ, and do good service in advancing the interests of his kingdom, but who use their talents and influence to tear down instead of to build up, are like noted rebels; their prominence, the value of the talent they use in the service of Satan, increases their guilt and makes their punishment sure. These will feel the wrath of God. They will experience what Christ suffered in saving men from the penalty of the broken law. The value of man and the measure of his accountability can be known only by the cross of Calvary. He who presents himself to the sinner as the One strong to deliver, will prove himself mighty to execute wrath and judgment upon every unrepenting son of Adam. He who holds the worlds in position, who weighs the hills in scales, and the mountains in a balance, who taketh up the isles as a very little thing, will show himself mighty to avenge his unrequited mercy and spurned love. Those who flatter themselves that God is too merciful to punish the sinner, have only to look to Calvary to make assurance doubly sure that vengeance will be visited upon every transgressor of his righteous law. {ST, April 3, 1884 par. 5} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158510
11/19/13 05:26 AM
11/19/13 05:26 AM
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John was speaking of his personal eye witness account of Jesus's live on this earth. I'd buy that. That just makes your mathematical difficulty so much the greater, considering that John speaks in terms of just the 3.5 years he witnessed Jesus' life. The world would be more than filled to include those other 27 years' worth of books to be written on Jesus' life.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. John makes my point! So I don't have any mathematical problems at all! Actually, your big problem is in the math. That you fail to grasp the severity of your problem makes me wonder what kind of engineer you are.
Let's try again: Assuming you know everything in the historical account of Christ's life in the New Testament, what is the upper limit of how much you know of Christ's earthly life (rounded off to the nearest hundredth of a percent)?
For easy reference, here's what John said:
John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. Personal attacks to take the heat off the real problem, which is what is the character of God really like. Is God vengeful and severe? Nope. The character of God is exactly as Jesus has revealed by His Son as he walked this earth as a human. That is the hard part you want to hide for it reveals God as very different from the god you admire. Pot and kettle, at it again.  APL, face it. What you "know" is miniscule. It is so small that you are afraid to write the numbers down. Real engineers are not afraid of numbers; we deal with them. Politicians hide the numbers. And to have the audacity to reject God's own word because of what you "know" is the height of arrogance and pride. You are walking down Eve's road. "God didn't mean what He said. I know better."
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: asygo]
#158521
11/19/13 01:01 PM
11/19/13 01:01 PM
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Posts: 6,368
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Who is rejecting God's word? John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?. So long time, how long? 3.5 years? But in Christ we behold the character of the Father, and see the pitying tenderness which God exercised for fallen man, giving his only begotten Son as a ransom for the transgressors of the law. It is in beholding the love of God that repentance is awakened in the sinner's heart, and an earnest desire is created to become reconciled to God.
...
It is our privilege to know God experimentally, and in true knowledge of God is life eternal. The only begotten Son of God was God's gift to the world, in whose character was revealed the character of him who gave the law to men and angels.
...
Unless men shall know God as Christ has revealed him, they will never form a character after the divine similitude, and will therefore never see God. {RH March 9, 1897}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158532
11/19/13 01:55 PM
11/19/13 01:55 PM
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Posts: 6,512
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M: Jesus created everything in the Universe - heaven, angels, planets, other beings, earth, plants, animals, humans, water, air, sunshine, fire, etc. He is also the source of life and power of everything He created. They exist and act because He enables them to exist and act. If He ceased to enable them to exist and act they would cease to exist and act - they would vanish, disappear.
K: Ok, but what is the difference between create and employ? I have explained it as best as I can. I lack the ability to explain it to your satisfaction. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I find no place where you even tried to explain the difference. You say there is a difference, but then you group empower and employ together as if there was no difference. So I have not seen you attempt to explain the difference. M: Your knife analogy demonstrates the fact nothing Jesus created can act in accordance with its design and purpose without His constant power and guidance.
K: But what if an evil person took my knife and killed his son? Am I responsible for that or are they? Do you see a difference? Yes, there is a difference. However, Jesus, unlike you, is Lord God Almighty. He can intervene and prevent it (without violating freedom of choice). Things happen because Jesus chooses not to intervene (for reasons that make sense to Him). I agree with your statement here. But this isn't what you've been talking about.
Jesus created Lucifer and is his source of life. Satan would be unable to do anything if Jesus ceased sustaining him. In addition to this fact, Jesus also permits Satan to cause disease, disaster, and death (within the limits He Himself sets and enforces). Satan can do nothing without Jesus' permission. Whatever Satan does is nothing more than Jesus is willing to allow him to do.
I agree with this statement too. But this isn't what we've been talking about. M: The outcome of a battle is up to Jesus. He reserves the right to ensure the right side wins. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3} You asked, Who killed King Saul? The answer is, He committed suicide. But the reason he killed himself is because Jesus used the Philistines to defeat him in battle. Jesus took action that resulted in punishment.
K: So that's why you believe that Saul killing himself or God killing him is one and the same. Because God manipulated the environment in such a way as to cause Saul to kill himself? So when Ellen White says Saul added self-murder to his list of sins, you mean that not to be entirely correct because God was partly mostly responsible as He created such a harsh environment for Saul that affected his mental attitude. So it's not really Saul's fault, but God's. God made him do it? I do not agree with your reasoning. The reason King Saul killed himself is because Jesus permitted him to be defeated in battle. It is highly unlikely King Saul would have committed suicide if Jesus had enabled him to win. I agree with this. But this isn't what you've been saying about Saul, is it?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: kland]
#158539
11/19/13 03:37 PM
11/19/13 03:37 PM
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Kland, I'm glad we can agree on something, namely, Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil men and evil angels to kill them. Where we disagree, of course, is (1) I also believe Jesus "uses His enemies as instruments to punish" sinners (e.g. King Saul). (2) He also uses the forces of nature to punish sinners. (3) And, Jesus also commands holy angels and holy men to kill sinners.
I realize you disagree with the last three points. You believe He withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to kill sinners. You object to the idea Jesus "uses His enemies as instruments to punish". You also believe Jesus withdraws His retraining hand and permits the forces of nature to act in and of itself to kill sinners. And, of course, you believe holy angels withdraw their protection and permit either the forces of nature, evil men, or evil angels to fulfill Jesus' commands. Any and all inspired texts or passages that say otherwise must be interpreted to agree with this view.
You asked, "What is the difference between create and employ?" And you also observed, "But then you group empower and employ together as if there was no difference." Create? Empower? Employ? As is relates to Jesus punishing sinners. Create = cause to exist. Empower = cause to act. Employ = use as a weapon to kill.
PS - Have you answered why Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158541
11/19/13 03:40 PM
11/19/13 03:40 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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APL, you're unwillingness to answer my questions and address my points is disturbing. M: During His 33 year sojourn on Earth when did Jesus:
1. Punish sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?
2. Punish sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?
3. Command someone like Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because they mistakenly believed killing is right?
A: Over and over we see that the character of the God that worked with the Israelites was like the Christ in the New.
M: Obviously Jesus did none of the things in the NT you believe He did in the OT (referring to the 3 summaries listed above). Please explain why you believe Jesus did not do the 3 things listed above while He was here. Please.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158544
11/19/13 04:01 PM
11/19/13 04:01 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Luke 11:2 Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158552
11/19/13 06:20 PM
11/19/13 06:20 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
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Who is rejecting God's word? John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?. So long time, how long? 3.5 years? But in Christ we behold the character of the Father, and see the pitying tenderness which God exercised for fallen man, giving his only begotten Son as a ransom for the transgressors of the law. It is in beholding the love of God that repentance is awakened in the sinner's heart, and an earnest desire is created to become reconciled to God.
...
It is our privilege to know God experimentally, and in true knowledge of God is life eternal. The only begotten Son of God was God's gift to the world, in whose character was revealed the character of him who gave the law to men and angels.
...
Unless men shall know God as Christ has revealed him, they will never form a character after the divine similitude, and will therefore never see God. {RH March 9, 1897} And given that Philip was with Jesus for 3.5 years, how much of it did he record and how much of it do you know? I'm not questioning that Jesus revealed God. I'm questioning how much of it you know, since your idea of God contradicts His own words.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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