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What comes first-- The Sunday law or the Church judgment?
#160234
01/10/14 04:37 PM
01/10/14 04:37 PM
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Does Scripture and SOP give us clear clues as to the timing of the above events?
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Re: What comes first-- The Sunday law or the Church judgment?
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#160237
01/11/14 12:13 AM
01/11/14 12:13 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Some of the Last Day Events overlap and/or run concurrently.
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Re: What comes first-- The Sunday law or the Church judgment?
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#160252
01/11/14 08:17 PM
01/11/14 08:17 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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Does Scripture and SOP give us clear clues as to the timing of the above events? The book 'Last Day Events' is very good at finding the appropriate testimony quotes to discover the timing of these events. "It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner.—Christian Service, 41 (1893). {LDE 172.1} "Divisions will come in the church. Two parties will be developed. The wheat and tares grow up together for the harvest."—Selected Messages 2:114 (1896). {LDE 172.3} This is happening right now, and if you look at the context of this quote; first she says divisions WILL COME, so it is a future prophecy being fulfilled in our day. Second; inspiration says two parties will develope, and for that to happen there is a division because of judgment, because of the characteristics of being lost in the church. Does anyone think they would know if they were lost yet? No way, or the ones who are lost would KNOW. When "evidence is made sure" it is too late for the proud to humble themselves. "The Lord is soon to come. There must be a refining, winnowing process in every church, for there are among us wicked men who do not love the truth or honor God."—The Review and Herald, March 19, 1895. {LDE 173.3} "Prosperity multiplies a mass of professors. Adversity purges them out of the church."—Testimonies for the Church 4:89 (1876). {LDE 173.5} Now we get to the heart of your question. "The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast (sunday law) will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church.—Testimonies for the Church 5:81 (1882). {LDE 173.6} In the absence of the persecution there have drifted into our ranks men who appear sound and their Christianity unquestionable, but who, if persecution should arise, would go out from us.—Evangelism, 360 (1890). {LDE 174.1} When the law of God is made void the church will be sifted by fiery trials, and a larger proportion than we now anticipate will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.—Selected Messages 2:368 (1891). {LDE 174.2} To answer your question directly... The Sunday law shows the world what God has already seen. The test reveals where men's hearts are when it arrives. There is Gold and Dross together until the Test; there is wheat and tares, so by this point the fruit of their faith is evident. But there is another point that should be addressed. Before the Sunday law becomes a major issue the state of the dead will be the bigger issue. The dead will appear to come from heaven to deceive the world to believe that they should make a Sunday law. "The forms of the dead will appear, through the cunning device of Satan, and many will link up with the one who loveth and maketh a lie. I warn our people that right among us some will turn away from the faith and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and by them the truth will be evil spoken of. {LDE 171.1} A marvelous work shall take place. Ministers, lawyers, doctors, who have permitted these falsehoods to overmaster their spirit of discernment, will be themselves deceivers, united with the deceived. A spiritual drunkenness will take possession of them.—The Upward Look, 317 (1905). {LDE 171.2} " Evil angels in the form of men will talk with those who know the truth. They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God.... Have Seventh-day Adventists forgotten the warning given in the sixth chapter of Ephesians? We are engaged in a warfare against the hosts of darkness. Unless we follow our Leader closely, Satan will obtain the victory over us.—Selected Messages 3:411 (1903). {LDE 160.3} Evil angels in the form of believers will work in our ranks to bring in a strong spirit of unbelief. Let not even this discourage you, but bring a true heart to the help of the Lord against the powers of satanic agencies. These powers of evil will assemble in our meetings, not to receive a blessing, but to counterwork the influences of the Spirit of God.—Mind, Character, and Personality 2:504, 505 (1909). {LDE 161.1} "It is not difficult for the evil angels to represent both saints and sinners who have died, and make these representations visible to human eyes. These manifestations will be more frequent, and developments of a more startling character will appear as we near the close of time.—Evangelism, 604 (1875). {LDE 161.2} It is Satan’s most successful and fascinating delusion—one calculated to take hold of the sympathies of those who have laid their loved ones in the grave. Evil angels come in the form of those loved ones and relate incidents connected with their lives, and perform acts which they performed while living. In this way they lead persons to believe that their dead friends are angels, hovering over them and communicating with them. These evil angels, who assume to be the deceased friends, are regarded with a certain idolatry, and with many their word has greater weight than the Word of God.—The Signs of the Times, August 26, 1889. {LDE 161.3} He [Satan] has power to bring before men the appearance of their departed friends. The counterfeit is perfect; the familiar look, the words, the tone, are reproduced with marvelous distinctness.... Many will be confronted by the spirits of devils personating beloved relatives or friends and declaring the most dangerous heresies. These visitants will appeal to our tenderest sympathies and will work miracles to sustain their pretensions.—The Great Controversy, 552, 560 (1911). {LDE 161.4}
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: What comes first-- The Sunday law or the Church judgment?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#160253
01/11/14 08:28 PM
01/11/14 08:28 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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The end of Judgment for the elder brother in the church does end before the younger brother though. The seal of God is given to those who sigh and cry for the abominations done in the sanctuary, and then the 144,000 declare with a loud voice that Babylon has fallen during the Sunday law issue, so there IS definitely judgment of the end time church before the loud cry, the shaking just proves what God had already seen. Those who have been prepared will stand with the banner of Christ when the power comes from on high.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: What comes first-- The Sunday law or the Church judgment?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#160256
01/12/14 01:40 AM
01/12/14 01:40 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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By "judgment" do you mean close of probation?
We need to be careful in trying to pin point that. On the one hand we need to prepare today, and every day. We don't know when our earthly life will end, or when our probation closes.
On the other hand we need to be careful not to pretend to know when the judgment on members ends closing the probation for some, who might of rallied and fully surrendered to Christ when the Sunday crises comes, but because of supposed predictions sink in discouragement thinking it is too late, when in actuality the Holy Spirit was still working with them.
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Re: What comes first-- The Sunday law or the Church judgment?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#160259
01/12/14 03:27 AM
01/12/14 03:27 AM
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"so there IS definitely judgment of the end time church before the loud cry"
Along with those other statements I can generally agree, particularly the above quoted one. However we need to know what this judgment will be. First, we know that the "Israel of today" is the SDA church, see Testimonies, Vol. 9, p.164.
Many think it's a not a literal church judgment, meaning a literal removing of the tares. However upon close inspection we find there is no doubt that the judgment takes place IN the church first before the Loud Cry and the world's judgment at large.EGW is clear that God's wrath is appears FIRST within His sanctuary ( Testimonies, vol. 5, p.211-212)
General timeline--
1) To understand final events we know that the Revelation is the "go to" book to get a clear picture (although symbolical in many ways).
2) There are many many Scriptures that point to a church purification such as Isaiah 52:1, Mal.3:1-5, etc. Then we have EGW who makes the purification a must in order to be "permitted" to voice the Loud Cry. (See Review and Herald, Nov. 19, 1908) Particularly a very clear quote is found in Testimonies, vol. 5, p.80.
3) Then we go to Rev.7 to find out about the sealing process and we find that it applies to 144,000 servants (people) within ALL (this is a very important word) the tribes of "Israel". And we know that SOP labels the SDA people as Israel. This 144,000 concurs with your quotes showing "few" find the way per SOP (also see Testimonies, vol. 1. p.608-609) and the Lord's quote (Matt. 7:14).
4) The "winds" are held back UNTIL the sealing is done. What are the winds? EGW clarifies it for us , see Testimonis, vol. 5, p.152. They represent the mark of the beast system, the Sunday law. In other words, strife that can effect the sealing process if not held back, hence the Sunday law cannot be allowed to form until the sealing is done on that last 144,000th person.
5) Now, we get to a very important understanding. The sealings mentioned in Rev. 7, is ONE AND THE SAME AS EZEKIEL 9! That is confirmed by EGW , see Testimonies to Ministers, p. 445. Both prophets saw the church purification but from different angles. John saw the destruction of the tares during the sealing of the 144k but was not allowed to speak about it, as Ezekiel was.
6) After such marking/slaying occurs within the church, the "purified church" is then ready for the FULL outpouring of the Spirit of God, and as such can give the powerful Loud Cry.For a clear prophetic scene of this time read Joel 2:1-11. Miracles and signs will abound and a "great multitude" will be called out of Babylon (false churches)and brought into a holy purified church, no more mixed with the tares. But the devils won't be whistling dixie during this time, they will counter the miracles and the world will have a decision--stand with the Sabbath keepers or the Sunday keepers.
7) This constitutes the final pleading of the Lord, and the "escaped" ones (see Isaiah 66:15-21) are to go out into the world to bring in that final "Gentile" and then begins the seven last plagues.
Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 01/12/14 03:33 AM.
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Re: What comes first-- The Sunday law or the Church judgment?
[Re: Godsloveandlaw]
#160261
01/12/14 04:00 AM
01/12/14 04:00 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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EGW "The Lord has shown me clearly that the image of the beast will be formed before probation closes, for it is to be the great test for the people of God, by which their eternal destiny will be decided.--2SM 81 (1890).{7BC 976.2}
This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who proved their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast (Letter 11, 1890). {7BC 976.3} {15MR 15 This crises -- persecution against God's commandment keepers -- will cause the great shifting when multitudes leave the truth. They will rationalize away the necessity to keep the Sabbath under these circumstances and this constitute the great shaking. "The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld, must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith, and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. 5T 463
An apostate church will unite with the powers of earth and hell to place upon the forehead or in the hand, the mark of the beast, and prevail upon the children of God to worship the beast and his image. They will seek to compel them to renounce their allegiance to God's law, and yield homage to the papacy. Then will come the times which will try men's souls; for the confederacy of apostasy will demand that the loyal subjects of God shall renounce the law of Jehovah, and repudiate the truth of his word. Then will the gold be separated from the dross, and it will be made apparent who are the godly, who are loyal and true, and who are the disloyal, the dross and the tinsel. What clouds of chaff will then be borne away by the fan of God! Where now our eyes can discover only rich floors of wheat, will be chaff blown away with the fan of God. Every one who is not centered in Christ will fail to stand the test and ordeal of that day.{RH, November 8, 1892 par. 7}
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Re: What comes first-- The Sunday law or the Church judgment?
[Re: dedication]
#160265
01/12/14 03:46 PM
01/12/14 03:46 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Dedication, thank you for sharing. The enforcement of escalating Sunday Laws is a major catalyst. Man-made and natural disasters will cause Christians to clamor for Sunday Laws. Politicians will concede. Evil angels personating holy angels and deceased humans will affirm Sunday Laws. Sabbath-keepers will be persecuted. Adventists will be shaken and sifted. Eleventh-hour believers will respond to the call to come out of Babylon and join Adventists in proclaiming the Three Angels' Messages. Millions will be martyred. The 144,000 will be numbered and sealed. Probation will close. The plagues will fall. Christ will return.
However, as of today, there is no indication any of this is more likely to happen now than ever before. But let two or three major disasters cripple the economy of the USA and things will unfold rapidly. Are SDA Church members ready for the shaking and the influx of eleventh-hour believers? Do they understand and experience righteousness by faith?
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Re: What comes first-- The Sunday law or the Church judgment?
[Re: dedication]
#160266
01/12/14 03:48 PM
01/12/14 03:48 PM
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"The Lord has shown me clearly that the image of the beast will be formed before probation closes, for it is to be the great test for the people of God, by which their eternal destiny will be decided."--2SM 81 (1890).{7BC 976.2}
This statement is true, however we must understand that the close of probation for the church is not the close of probation of the world.Here it addresses the final world's close of probation. Two different COP's. Ellen White was not given all the light in both scenarios, She was mostly given light on the final probation for the world.
"This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who proved their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast." (Letter 11, 1890). {7BC 976.3} {15MR 15
Again, this is the same as first quote as to COP addressed.Same with all the other quotes you mentioned. More support for the sealing (Rev.7/Ezek.9) being done for the "church" prior to the time of trouble/Loud Cry.
"Just before we entered it [the time of trouble], we all received the seal of the living God. Then I saw the four angels cease to hold the four winds. And I saw famine, pestilence and sword, nation rose against nation, and the whole world was in confusion" (Day-Star, March 14, 1846). 7BC 968.11
Here we see that the sealing is done for the church, then the winds (Sunday law) is let loose. Once we understand that there are two COP, the whole puzzle comes together.
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Re: What comes first-- The Sunday law or the Church judgment?
[Re: dedication]
#160268
01/12/14 04:04 PM
01/12/14 04:04 PM
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Yes, I mean "judgment" in the terms of --church judgment. The Scriptures and SOP clearly show that judgment must come FIRST to the house of God (and execution of it)(1 Peter 4:17)Why is that? It's because the wheat and tares cannot exist for the Loud Cry to be given. As we've learned from OT story of Achan, God's power is held back until ALL sinners are removed from His church (people) THEN He will use His "servants" mightily for the Loud Cry.
Further, if this church purification does not happen and the saints and sinners are allowed to give the Loud Cry, would not they bring the people out of one sinful church into another? God has NEVER done such a thing in all history, while also pouring out His Spirit upon His people.
Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 01/12/14 04:05 PM.
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