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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #161218
02/03/14 04:20 AM
02/03/14 04:20 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

Do you not understand the effect of your logic? It is as if one were to say God or the angels don't eat food, they burn it, owing to the examples we have of such in the Bible--all while ignoring the fact that at other times, God and angels have eaten human food.

In other words, you cannot claim that when God permits something in one instance He can never cause it in another. Such reasoning is fallacious.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Green Cochoa] #161219
02/03/14 04:21 AM
02/03/14 04:21 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God was a wise and compassionate lawgiver, judging all cases righteously, and without partiality. While the Israelites were in Egyptian bondage, they were surrounded with idolatry. The Egyptians had received traditions in regard to sacrificing. They did not acknowledge the existence of the God of Heaven. They sacrificed to their idol gods. With great pomp and ceremony they performed their idol worship. They erected altars to the honor of their gods, and they required even their own children to pass through the fire. After they had erected their altars they required their children to leap over the altars through the fire. If they could do this without their being burned, the idol priests and people received it as an evidence that their god accepted their offerings, and favored especially the person who passed through the fiery ordeal. He was loaded with benefits, and was ever afterward greatly esteemed by all the people. He was never allowed to be punished, however aggravating might be his crimes. If another person who leaped through the fire was so unfortunate as to be burned, then his fate was fixed; for they thought that their gods were angry, and would be appeased with nothing short of the unhappy victim's life, and he was offered up as a sacrifice upon their idol altars. {3SG 303.1}

Even some of the children of Israel had so far degraded themselves as to practice these abominations, and God caused the fire to kindle upon their children, whom they made to pass through the fire. They did not go to all the lengths of the heathen nations; but God deprived them of their children by causing the fire to consume them in the act of passing through it. {3SG 303.2}

Because the people of God had confused ideas of the ceremonial sacrificial offerings, and had heathen traditions confounded with their ceremonial worship, God condescended to give them definite directions, that they might understand the true import of those sacrifices which were to last only till the Lamb of God should be slain, who was the great antitype of all their sacrificial offerings. {3SG 304.1}


Ellen White says God caused the fire to kill those children. That God did not merely "permit" it is evident in the facts presented in the first paragraph, where the children who were made to jump through the flames were not ordinarily killed.

God is clearly punishing the parents here by killing their children as a consequence for their perversion of the sacrificial types and their observance of idolatrous practices.

NOTE: It is evident that the parents had not intended for their children to die, for, as Mrs. White says, "they did not go to all the lengths of the heathen nations." They would not have sacrificed the burned children themselves, to cause their deaths--they just wanted to make them jump through the flames.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I would invite any of the anti-punish folk to explain how God did not cause the deaths of the children in the above example.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 02/03/14 04:22 AM.

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Green Cochoa] #161239
02/03/14 01:36 PM
02/03/14 01:36 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

Do you not understand the effect of your logic? It is as if one were to say God or the angels don't eat food, they burn it, owing to the examples we have of such in the Bible--all while ignoring the fact that at other times, God and angels have eaten human food.

In other words, you cannot claim that when God permits something in one instance He can never cause it in another. Such reasoning is fallacious.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Do you understand the affect of your logic? It makes God look like a sadistic monster.

It is interesting that you do not deny that God did not "send" the fiery serpents, but permitted them, correct? Do not ignore all the EGW has written in interpreting all her writing. God is not the executioner of the sentenced against transgression. We have no idea how much we owe of peace and safety to God! How did God kill Saul? He did not prevent it. How did God kill the children above? He did not prevent it.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

That is Good News.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #161240
02/03/14 02:35 PM
02/03/14 02:35 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

That is Good News.


It is that very light, APL, which finishes the darkness. They cannot coexist. God's light destroys the darkness.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Green Cochoa] #161241
02/03/14 02:37 PM
02/03/14 02:37 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

It is worth noting that you did not deny that God punished the Israelites for passing their children through the fire.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Green Cochoa] #161244
02/03/14 03:17 PM
02/03/14 03:17 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Does light "destroy" darkness, or is it darkness is not found in light? I'm sure you have some "explanation" that will be..

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Green Cochoa] #161248
02/03/14 04:30 PM
02/03/14 04:30 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

It is worth noting that you did not deny that God punished the Israelites for passing their children through the fire.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


You have God actively killing children. God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Green Cochoa] #161250
02/03/14 05:03 PM
02/03/14 05:03 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Green, If I told someone they should not drink soft drinks but they insist on doing so, and drink diet sodas thinking they are healthy. If I then tell them that if they are going to drink sodas, they should drink non-diet sodas because of all the worse chemicals in diet sodas.

Would you then say that kland recommends and condones drinking sugary sodas?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #161273
02/04/14 01:25 AM
02/04/14 01:25 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
You have God actively killing children.


You didn't read the quote I posted. It is Ellen White, not me, who has it thus.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: kland] #161274
02/04/14 01:27 AM
02/04/14 01:27 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
A new video to me. Hm...



Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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