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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163105
03/08/14 01:36 AM
03/08/14 01:36 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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How do you all understand this EGW quote, especially the underlined portion?
Quote:
The Flood Comes

Notwithstanding the solemn exhibition they [the antediluvians] had witnessed of God's power—of the unnatural occurrence of the beasts’ leaving the forests and fields, and going into the ark, and the angel of God clothed with brightness, and terrible in majesty, descending from heaven and closing the door; yet they hardened their hearts, and continued to revel and sport over the signal manifestations of divine power. But upon the eighth day the heavens gathered blackness. . . . The rain descended from the clouds above them. This was something they had never witnessed. . . . The storm increased in violence until water seemed to come from heaven like mighty cataracts. . . . Jets of water would burst up from the earth with indescribable force, throwing massive rocks hundreds of feet into the air, and then they would bury themselves deep in the earth. . . . {TA 70.1}

The violence of the storm increased, and there were mingled with the warring of the elements the wailings of the people who had despised the authority of God. Trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. And even Satan himself, who was compelled to be amid the warring elements, feared for his own existence. . . . {TA 70.2}

Angels that excel in strength guided the ark and preserved it from harm. Every moment during that frightful storm of forty days and forty nights the preservation of the ark was a miracle of almighty power.—1SP 73, 75. {TA 70.3}


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #163109
03/08/14 03:17 AM
03/08/14 03:17 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
There is no way you can expect anyone to extrapolate answers to the questions based on your response.
What is clear to me is that you can't extrapolate. You don't understand the metaphors I've presented. I can't make you understand.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163113
03/08/14 04:12 AM
03/08/14 04:12 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: daryl
How do you all understand this EGW quote, especially the underlined portion?
Best to read this quote in a better setting then the compilation, TA. Read chapter 7 in Patriarchs and Prophets. Read each sentence slowly and carefully. This is a powerful chapter.

As for Satan fearing for his life, this tells me that Satan is "real" and not immortal.

And note that Angels that excel in strength were sent to preserve the Ark. Question - preserve the Ark from what God is doing to the earth by direct action? Nope.

In the flood, EGW writes that Mercy had ended for the. What is mercy? Mercy is God overruling Satan's work, see {DA 471.4}

And put this with {GC 36.1}, the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner.

Did God "cause" the flood? God withdrew His mercy, and yes, the world fell apart. Satan experienced the cause and effect of transgression of God's law. And it scared him greatly, so that he feared for his own life.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163122
03/08/14 08:54 AM
03/08/14 08:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Satan well knows that his immortality will be revoked, and that he will be punished, if he does not win the war. Until then, he will fight to the bitter end. Look how he will try to overcome the New Jerusalem after the millennium. If he were to prevail, his life would be preserved. Though he sees it as a lost cause, he will try anyhow, if so be he can extend his life into perpetuity.

During the Flood, with God in control of the elements, Satan was very much "out of control." He had no power to stay the forces of nature. The quotation further tells me that even amidst the flood, Satan was not permitted to leave the earth. Had he been able to, say, fly to the moon during the flood, what fears would he have had? It's either this, or Satan would have had a fear for his own life in the sense of anticipation of the end, and thinking that this must be it. Satan does not have the ability to know the future as God does. The Bible, with its predictions of many future events, was not then written. Satan did not yet know when his end was to be scheduled.

But, he does now. That is why he knows he has but a short time.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #163137
03/08/14 04:02 PM
03/08/14 04:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
M: You believe Jesus commanded the Jews to kill every man, woman, and child, not because it was His will, but because they wanted to - they demanded it so He commanded it. Were any laws broken? Did they sin when they obeyed Jesus' command?

A: God never commanded the children of Israel to fight. Refusing that, God gave rules to minimize the damage.

M: What "rules" are you referring to? Are you referring to the commandment to utterly kill and destroy every man, woman, and child? Do you believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it? Were any laws broken when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child? Did they sin when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child?

A: I have repeatedly laid out the principles. We are not to fight - for any reason. No war, no fighting, period. You reject that. Thus, you see any command to kill as perfect and just and God's perfect will. Did the war of the Jews ever bring a lasting peace? Nope. God did not want them to fight. Did the Jews follow God? NO. I'll bet you believe they did. Unfortunately scripture does not support that view. Read Ezekiel 20 and Jeremiah 7. They went backwards not forwards.

M: There is no way you can expect anyone to extrapolate answers to the questions based on your response.

A: What is clear to me is that you can't extrapolate. You don't understand the metaphors I've presented. I can't make you understand.

It is not fair or reasonable of you to expect me to extrapolate your answers to the questions. When people study together it is normal for them to clearly, plainly state their position and to answer questions directly. You have not done that. Thus, this thread, and others like it, go on and on without conclusion. Nevertheless, I'll attempt to answer the way I think you believe:

1. "God gave rules to minimize the damage." What rules are you referring to? You referring to the commandment to utterly kill and destroy every man, woman, and child.

2. Do you believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it? Yes, of course, otherwise He would have never commanded it.

3. Were any laws broken when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child? Yes, of course, the law forbids killing and murder.

4. Did they sin when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child? Yes, of course, killing and murdering are sins.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #163138
03/08/14 04:05 PM
03/08/14 04:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The following proves Ellen White did not say the Jews were not initially supposed to fight their way into the Promised Land:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Caleb believed the Jews were well able to take the Promised Land: But God had promised the land to Israel. "Let us go up at once and possess it," urged Caleb; "for we are well able to overcome it." {PP 388.3}

The Canaanites would be an easy prey for the Jews: The Canaanites had filled up the measure of their iniquity, and the Lord would no longer bear with them. His protection being removed, they would be an easy prey. {PP 390.1}

Jesus smote the ten unfaithful spies with a plague: The ten unfaithful spies, divinely smitten by the plague, perished before the eyes of all Israel; and in their fate the people read their own doom. {PP 391.3}

Jesus commanded the Jews to go up and take the Promised Land, but they were cowards and did not believe they were able to do it; Jesus commanded them to treat, but they refused to obey: They resolved to redeem their cowardice. When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}

Jesus promised to empower the Jews to take possession of the Promised Land; they refused; He commanded them to retreat; they refused; they fought without divine aid: He did not command them to fight: Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of the divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time. They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan; yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid. "We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41. So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163174
03/09/14 01:25 AM
03/09/14 01:25 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: mm
The following proves Ellen White did not say the Jews were not initially supposed to fight their way into the Promised Land:
"prove"?? I don't think so!
Originally Posted By: mm
Caleb believed the Jews were well able to take the Promised Land: But God had promised the land to Israel. "Let us go up at once and possess it," urged Caleb; "for we are well able to overcome it." {PP 388.3}
The people were well able to overcome the Egyptians. Did they need to fight? Nope.
Originally Posted By: mm
The Canaanites would be an easy prey for the Jews: The Canaanites had filled up the measure of their iniquity, and the Lord would no longer bear with them. His protection being removed, they would be an easy prey. {PP 390.1}
The Egyptians were easy prey. No need to fight.
Originally Posted By: mm
Jesus smote the ten unfaithful spies with a plague: The ten unfaithful spies, divinely smitten by the plague, perished before the eyes of all Israel; and in their fate the people read their own doom. {PP 391.3}
Yep. Read {GC 389.2} and the Story of Job what happens when God removes His mercy.
Originally Posted By: mm
Jesus commanded the Jews to go up and take the Promised Land, but they were cowards and did not believe they were able to do it; Jesus commanded them to treat, but they refused to obey: They resolved to redeem their cowardice. When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}
YES - they were to go up and TAKE the land. It was a gift to them, all they needed to do was take it. Just as when the crossed the Red Sea or later the Jordan, all they needed do to was to move forward. And note - EGW never intended them to take the land by warfare! {PP 392.3} But they were rebellious and did not take the land. Then in response to their reaction to the pronounced sentence, they then did go and fight and without God.
Originally Posted By: mm
{PP 392.3} quoted
God gave divine aid leaving Egypt. In the command to take the land, God did not require warfare. Again, read {392.3}.

So thank you for your quotes. The confirm that God did not command them to go and fight to take the land. The land was given to them as a gift. All they needed to do was to go up and take it.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163175
03/09/14 01:31 AM
03/09/14 01:31 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: mm
It is not fair or reasonable of you to expect me to extrapolate your answers to the questions. When people study together it is normal for them to clearly, plainly state their position and to answer questions directly.
It is hard to speak to prejudiced crowds. I think the parable of the father and his daughter above lays out my position well.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163182
03/09/14 02:25 PM
03/09/14 02:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
When God had bidden them go up and take the land, they had refused; and now when He directed them to retreat they were equally rebellious. They determined to seize upon the land and possess it; it might be that God would accept their work and change His purpose toward them. {PP 392.2}

A: YES - they were to go up and TAKE the land. It was a gift to them, all they needed to do was take it.

The biblical expression "go up" very obviously means take by force of arms in battle. Note all the uses of the expression in the following passages:

Numbers
13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they [are] stronger than we.
14:40 And they rose up early in the morning, and gat them up into the top of the mountain, saying, Lo, we [be here], and will go up unto the place which the LORD hath promised: for we have sinned.
14:41 And Moses said, Wherefore now do ye transgress the commandment of the LORD? but it shall not prosper.
14:42 Go not up, for the LORD [is] not among you; that ye be not smitten before your enemies.

Deuteronomy
1:21 Behold, the LORD thy God hath set the land before thee: go up [and] possess [it], as the LORD God of thy fathers hath said unto thee; fear not, neither be discouraged.
1:26 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:
1:41 Then ye answered and said unto me, We have sinned against the LORD, we will go up and fight, according to all that the LORD our God commanded us. And when ye had girded on every man his weapons of war, ye were ready to go up into the hill.
9:23 Likewise when the LORD sent you from Kadeshbarnea, saying, Go up and possess the land which I have given you; then ye rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God, and ye believed him not, nor hearkened to his voice.

Joshua
7:2 And Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which [is] beside Bethaven, on the east side of Bethel, and spake unto them, saying, Go up and view the country. And the men went up and viewed Ai.
7:3 And they returned to Joshua, and said unto him, Let not all the people go up; but let about two or three thousand men go up and smite Ai; [and] make not all the people to labour thither; for they [are but] few.
8:3 So Joshua arose, and all the people of war, to go up against Ai: and Joshua chose out thirty thousand mighty men of valour, and sent them away by night.
22:12 And when the children of Israel heard [of it], the whole congregation of the children of Israel gathered themselves together at Shiloh, to go up to war against them.
22:33 And the thing pleased the children of Israel; and the children of Israel blessed God, and did not intend to go up against them in battle, to destroy the land wherein the children of Reuben and Gad dwelt.

Judges
1:1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?
1:2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #163183
03/09/14 02:37 PM
03/09/14 02:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
1. "God gave rules to minimize the damage." What rules are you referring to? You referring to the commandment to utterly kill and destroy every man, woman, and child.

2. Do you believe Jesus commanded capital punishment and war because the Jews demanded it? Yes, of course, otherwise He would have never commanded it.

3. Were any laws broken when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child? Yes, of course, the law forbids killing and murder.

4. Did they sin when they utterly killed and destroyed every man, woman, and child? Yes, of course, killing and murdering are sins.

A: It is hard to speak to prejudiced crowds. I think the parable of the father and his daughter above lays out my position well.

I am certain the answers above accurately reflect your beliefs. Your fornication illustration makes it clear you believe the "rules" refer to Jesus' laws and commands to kill criminals and combatants. Just as fornication is a violation of the law, so too, killing criminals and combatants was a violation of the law. And, just as fornication is a sin, so too, killing criminals and combatants was a sin.

In conclusion, therefore, you believe Jesus commanded the Jews to sin.

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