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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164704
05/03/14 05:00 AM
05/03/14 05:00 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: The fruit of the Spirit is the same righteousness and true holiness Jesus manifested while here in sinful flesh. There is nothing sinful about it. The fruit of partaking of the divine nature is acceptable to God. There is nothing sinful about it.

A: I agree. But if that's the case, why is it that true believers' offerings are defiled and unacceptable to God without an Intercessor?

The fruit of the Spirit, the fruit of partaking of the divine nature is not defiled by sin. That much is certain. The righteousness and true holiness we experience as a result of humanity and divinity combined passes through Jesus' mediatorial intercession. "Everything's better with Blue Bonnet on it." In other words, no matter how perfect and holy it is, it is way more better when it passes through Jesus. The Father wouldn't have it any other way.

MM, I think you missed some important aspects of that famous quote. Please read it again (emphasis mine).

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God’s right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. {1SM 344.2}

Are you saying that perfect and holy = defiled and unacceptable to God? If so, we need to stop talking about the finer points of Christ's self-denial and go back to basics.

Last edited by asygo; 05/03/14 05:11 AM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164710
05/03/14 04:32 PM
05/03/14 04:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Arnold, we know Ellen White does not contradict the Bible. So, with this in mind, we need to understand 1SM 344 in light of Bible truth. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the fruit of humanity and divinity combined, the fruit of partaking of the divine nature, the fruit of walking in the Spirit is sin-stained filthy rags and unacceptable to God. Not even Ellen White says so. She never says "righteousness and true holiness" is sinful and unacceptable to God. Here's how the Bible describes the fruit of faith:

1. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

2. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

3. "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. "

4. "Whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."

5. "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."

6. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

7. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

8. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

9. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not."

10. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Again, nowhere in the Bible does it say righteousness and true holiness is sin-stained filthy rags. Ellen White says nothing to the contrary.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164712
05/03/14 05:20 PM
05/03/14 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Again, nowhere in the Bible does it say righteousness and true holiness is sin-stained filthy rags. Ellen White says nothing to the contrary.


"We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. {SC 28.3}
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner’s acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.{SC 29.1}
When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, “There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.” Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ’s righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ."{SC 29.2}

Daniel was the most upright man on earth at that time wasn't he? But even He saw how impure his heart was. This is essential to know, to see our unrighteousness even when we are assured we have been forgiven, it is essential.

You have been forgiven right Mt Man? Do you not see your deformities? If you cannot then you are not standing close enough to Christ.

Every time we sin Satan claims we have no right to heaven. To others who have witnessed our sinful behavior do they see that we have been forgiven? We carry the results of our sinful life until death, and EVERYONE has sinned. All of our righteousness
is filthy rags.

Was Moses forgiven for his sin? Then how could Satan dispute over his body at his resurrection? Because Moses had sinned Satan thought he had destroyed Moses.

Every time we are forgiven for sin, Satan is not present in the chambers of heaven to see the record struck out. He does not know what God has forgiven us for. He stands accusing, but Christ rebukes him and says we are forgiven if we repent and trust in His righteousness.

Quote:
The people of God are here represented as a criminal on trial. Joshua, as high priest, is seeking for a blessing for his people, who are in great affliction. While he is pleading before God, Satan is standing at his right hand as his adversary. He is accusing the children of God, and making their case appear as desperate as possible. He presents before the Lord their evil doings and their defects. He shows their faults and failures, hoping they will appear of such a character in the eyes of Christ that He will render them no help in their great need. Joshua, as the representative of God’s people, stands under condemnation, clothed with filthy garments. Aware of the sins of his people, he is weighed down with discouragement. Satan is pressing upon his soul a sense of guiltiness that makes him feel almost hopeless. Yet there he stands as a suppliant, with Satan arrayed against him. {COL 166.4}
The work of Satan as an accuser began in heaven. This has been his work on earth ever since man’s fall, and it will be his work in a special sense as we approach nearer to the close of this world’s history. As he sees that his time is short, he will work with greater earnestness to deceive and destroy. He is angry when he sees a people on the earth who, even in their weakness and sinfulness, have respect to the law of Jehovah. He is determined that they shall not obey God. He delights in their unworthiness, and has devices prepared for every soul, that all may be ensnared and separated from God. He seeks to accuse and condemn God and all who strive to carry out His purposes in this world in mercy and love, in compassion and forgiveness. {COL 167.1}
Every manifestation of God’s power for His people arouses the enmity of Satan. Every time God works in their behalf, Satan with his angels works with renewed vigor to compass their ruin. He is jealous of all who make Christ their strength. His object is to instigate evil, and when he has succeeded, throw all the blame upon the tempted ones. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which have dishonored their Redeemer. All this he urges as an argument proving his right to work his will in their destruction. He endeavors to affright their souls with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement can never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield fully to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.{COL 168.1}
The Lord’s people cannot of themselves answer the charges of Satan. As they look to themselves they are ready to despair. But they appeal to the divine Advocate. They plead the merits of the Redeemer. God can be “just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” Romans 3:26. With confidence the Lord’s children cry unto Him to silence the accusations of Satan, and bring to naught his devices. “Do me justice of mine adversary,” they pray; and with the mighty argument of the cross, Christ silences the bold accuser. {COL 168.2}
“The Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan, even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” When Satan seeks to cover the people of God with blackness, and ruin them, Christ interposes. Although they have sinned, Christ has taken the guilt of their sins upon His own soul. He has snatched the race as a brand from the fire. By His human nature He is linked with man, while through His divine nature He is one with the infinite God. Help is brought within the reach of perishing souls. The adversary is rebuked.{COL 169.1}
“Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel: and he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will (Future tense) clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair miter upon his head. So they set a fair miter upon his head, and clothed him with garments.” Then with the authority of the Lord of hosts the angel made a solemn pledge to Joshua, the representative of God’s people: “If thou wilt walk in My ways, and if thou wilt keep My charge, then thou shalt also judge My house, and shalt also keep My courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by”—even among the angels that surround the throne of God. (Zechariah 3:3-7).{COL 169.2}
Notwithstanding the defects of the people of God, Christ does not turn away from the objects of His care. He has the power to change their raiment. He removes the filthy garments, He places upon the repenting, believing ones His own robe of righteousness, and writes pardon against their names on the records of heaven. He confesses them as His before the heavenly universe. Satan their adversary is shown to be an accuser and deceiver. God will do justice for His own elect. {COL 169.3}


When do we get the Golden Miter and walk among the angels? Is it here in this life? No it is when we get to heaven.

The righteous have to wash their garments in the blood here on earth. But the new garments are given at the resurrection.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Daryl] #164714
05/03/14 05:36 PM
05/03/14 05:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
Do any of us know of anybody who claims that they are righteous and holy and actually denies self?

Jesus claims it of them. He said it is true. Jesus cannot lie. They themselves, however, would never say so. They are too busy beholding Christ and Him crucified. They ask, believe, and claim the promises of God. Ellen White touches on it:

Quote:
When Christ dwells in the heart, the soul will be so filled with His love, with the joy of communion with Him, that it will cleave to Him; and in the contemplation of Him, self will be forgotten. Love to Christ will be the spring of action. Those who feel the constraining love of God, do not ask how little may be given to meet the requirements of God; they do not ask for the lowest standard, but aim at perfect conformity to the will of their Redeemer. With earnest desire they yield all and manifest an interest proportionate to the value of the object which they seek. {SC 44.2}

You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him. {SC 47.1}

Through the right exercise of the will, an entire change may be made in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, you ally yourself with the power that is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from above to hold you steadfast, and thus through constant surrender to God you will be enabled to live the new life, even the life of faith. {SC 48.1}

You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised. This is the lesson which Jesus taught while He was on earth, that the gift which God promises us, we must believe we do receive, and it is ours. {SC 49.3}

You confess your sins and give yourself to God. You will to serve Him. Just as surely as you do this, God will fulfill His word to you. If you believe the promise,--believe that you are forgiven and cleansed,--God supplies the fact; you are made whole, just as Christ gave the paralytic power to walk when the man believed that he was healed. It is so if you believe it. {SC 51.1}

Do not wait to feel that you are made whole, but say, "I believe it; it is so, not because I feel it, but because God has promised." {SC 51.2}

But it is the will of God to cleanse us from sin, to make us His children, and to enable us to live a holy life. So we may ask for these blessings, and believe that we receive them, and thank God that we have received them. It is our privilege to go to Jesus and be cleansed, and to stand before the law without shame or remorse. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1. {SC 51.3}

Here is where thousands fail; they do not believe that Jesus pardons them personally, individually. They do not take God at His word. It is the privilege of all who comply with the conditions to know for themselves that pardon is freely extended for every sin. Put away the suspicion that God's promises are not meant for you. They are for every repentant transgressor. Strength and grace have been provided through Christ to be brought by ministering angels to every believing soul. None are so sinful that they cannot find strength, purity, and righteousness in Jesus, who died for them. He is waiting to strip them of their garments stained and polluted with sin, and to put upon them the white robes of righteousness; He bids them live and not die. {SC 52.3}

Those who become new creatures in Christ Jesus will bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. They will no longer fashion themselves according to the former lusts, but by the faith of the Son of God they will follow in His steps, reflect His character, and purify themselves even as He is pure. The things they once hated they now love, and the things they once loved they hate. The proud and self-assertive become meek and lowly in heart. The vain and supercilious become serious and unobtrusive. The drunken become sober, and the profligate pure. The vain customs and fashions of the world are laid aside. Christians will seek not the "outward adorning," but "the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit." 1 Peter 3:3, 4. {SC 58.3}

The loveliness of the character of Christ will be seen in His followers. It was His delight to do the will of God. Love to God, zeal for His glory, was the controlling power in our Saviour's life. Love beautified and ennobled all His actions. Love is of God. The unconsecrated heart cannot originate or produce it. It is found only in the heart where Jesus reigns. "We love, because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19, R.V. In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, subdues enmity, and ennobles the affections. This love, cherished in the soul, sweetens the life and sheds a refining influence on all around. {SC 59.3}

If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience. {SC 60.2}

If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. {SC 61.1}

Our testimony must be -

Do not wait to feel that you are made whole, but say, "I believe it; it is so, not because I feel it, but because God has promised." {SC 51.2}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164715
05/03/14 05:37 PM
05/03/14 05:37 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Arnold, we know Ellen White does not contradict the Bible. So, with this in mind, we need to understand 1SM 344 in light of Bible truth. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the fruit of humanity and divinity combined, the fruit of partaking of the divine nature, the fruit of walking in the Spirit is sin-stained filthy rags and unacceptable to God. ... Again, nowhere in the Bible does it say righteousness and true holiness is sin-stained filthy rags. Ellen White says nothing to the contrary.

Since in 1SM 344 EGW described works of true believers as defiled and unacceptable to God, we must conclude that you do not understand at all what she was saying in that passage. You say that everything true believers do are as spotless and pure as what Jesus Himself did, but EGW described them as ascending "not in spotless purity," so you must be talking about something other than the facts contained in 1SM 344. So no matter how many quotes you find supporting your claim, it seems clear that they have nothing to do with the truths in 1SM 344.

Let's see if we can dig deeper and discover somethig new. What do you think it is that comes from true believers that EGW described as defiled and unacceptable to God? What do you understand EGW was talking about?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164716
05/03/14 06:55 PM
05/03/14 06:55 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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I'm okay with studying 1SM 344 in light of other SOP insights. Does Ellen White enlarge upon the insight expressed 1SM 344 anywhere else?

It is notable Ellen White does not say "righteousness and true holiness" is sin-stained filthy rags.

I am more interested in what the Bible says about it. Where in the Bible does it say the fruit of abiding in Jesus is defiled and unacceptable to God?

The Bible testimony is clear and consistent. For example, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." Whatever else we find, it cannot contradict these plain statements of fact. They cannot be forced to mean - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164718
05/04/14 12:12 AM
05/04/14 12:12 AM
asygo  Offline
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1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


The testimony is indeed clear, but perhaps not in the way you believe.

Does it not scare you that in order to believe as you do, you must brush away 1SM 344 as too difficult to understand? It does not contain obscure words or references. The difficulty lies in its meaning.

You cannot study 1SM 344 by ignoring it.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164719
05/04/14 12:44 AM
05/04/14 12:44 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Do you believe the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sinful? If not, why not?

Do you believe the fruit of abiding in Jesus becomes defiled as it passes through corrupt human channels? If so, why?

In what sense do we have sin?

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164720
05/04/14 12:48 AM
05/04/14 12:48 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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PS - Please answer the questions I posted above.

PPS - 1 John 1:8 does not answer - Where in the Bible does it say the fruit of abiding in Jesus is defiled and unacceptable to God?

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164721
05/04/14 12:56 AM
05/04/14 12:56 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Everyone who believes on Christ, everyone who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, everyone who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}

Arnold, do you believe 1 SM 344 forces us to believe the "righteousness and true holiness" proceeding from believers who have reached "the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" is defiled and unacceptable to God?

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MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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