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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165079
05/17/14 01:27 AM
05/17/14 01:27 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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you said "Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature" Please post a link to the quote.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165081
05/17/14 03:49 AM
05/17/14 03:49 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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you said (quoted) "Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature" Please post a link to the quote. You were posting the same quote from Ellen White over and over. You quoted it three times that I can see on this thread. Post #165025 and #165037 are two of them. You quoted yourself quoting Ellen white and the repetition of the quote made it very clear you were using the quote to make your point on this subject as if those disputing against your interpretation of the issue are those who do not believe Jesus had sin in His flesh. Should I go back to the first time you quoted the text to prove it?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165092
05/17/14 03:17 PM
05/17/14 03:17 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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you said "Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature" Here's the post: I believe Jesus, like all born-again believers, fought the "greatest battle". People who believe otherwise rob Jesus of the "completeness of His humanity". In truth they are saying - "We must resist the greatest temptation. But Jesus was immune. We are tempted in ways Jesus was unable to be tempted because He was unlike us. Jesus did not have to resist the greatest temptation. In this crucial way, Jesus is not our Substitute or Surety." Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 3} Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature. But was not Christ actually tempted, not only by Satan in the wilderness, but all through His life, from childhood to manhood? Our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {FLB 48} The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}
The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God and being clothed with humility, possessing that love that is pure, peaceable, and easy to be entreated, full of gentleness and good fruits, is not an easy attainment. And yet it is his privilege and his duty to be a perfect overcomer here. The soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in knowledge and true holiness. {3T 106.2}
The Christian life is a battle and a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight--the greatest battle that was ever fought by man--is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up. {MB 141.2}
He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {MB 141.3}
Jesus Himself, while He dwelt among men, was often in prayer. Our Saviour identified Himself with our needs and weakness, in that He became a suppliant, a petitioner, seeking from His Father fresh supplies of strength, that He might come forth braced for duty and trial. He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, "in all points tempted like as we are;" but as the sinless one His nature recoiled from evil; He endured struggles and torture of soul in a world of sin. His humanity made prayer a necessity and a privilege. He found comfort and joy in communion with His Father. And if the Saviour of men, the Son of God, felt the need of prayer, how much more should feeble, sinful mortals feel the necessity of fervent, constant prayer. {SC 93.4}
As a man, Jesus also fought "the greatest battle" - else He is not our Example "in all things". Listen: As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Hebrews 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God. {DA 24.2} "If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us." To say Jesus did not fight "the greatest battle" is to "destroy the completeness of His humanity". Again, listen: Bear in mind that Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. {3SM 139.4} Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with His instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ, He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. {3SM 140.1} My point is - Jesus fought the "greatest battle". You, on the other hand, cannot agree because you believe Jesus was wired differently and was incapable. The Bible and the SOP say - "We have nothing to bear which He has not endured." But you in essence say - Not so. Impossible. Jesus never fought the "greatest battle". He was wired differently.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165094
05/17/14 04:08 PM
05/17/14 04:08 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
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The issue I see as I scanned through the posts is in the definition of words. When modern people hear words like "sinful nature" "fallen nature" etc. they understand only ONE MEANING, that is "a nature full of sin" or in other words "sinful" and in need of redemption. Thus using those words concerning Jesus is absolutely and totally blasphemous to the ears of those who understand the meaning of those words as "full of sin". We need to be certain in our belief that there was not a trace of sin in Jesus Character or life. The only way to understand EGW's use of those words is to seek to understand what she meant by them. And basically I believe she meant that the DNA that composed His human body was DNA passed down to him through the generations. He had a fully human body with all the natural needs and physical weaknesses that such a body possesses. However there was absolutely NOTHING in His character that desired sin-- "His nature recoiled from evil" SC 93 There was something different -- and that difference is called "a mystery", for there was NO SIN in Jesus ever. So what was the greatest battle Jesus fought in His human nature? His most severe temptation was to maintain complete humanity and dependence upon His Father, when He could have relied upon His own Divinity. This was the most severe discipline He faced.RH.1875-04-01 It was a difficult task for the Prince of Life to carry out the plan which he had undertaken for the salvation of man, in clothing his divinity with humanity. He had received honor in the heavenly courts, and was familiar with absolute power. It was as difficult for him to keep the level of humanity as it is for men to rise above the low level of their depraved natures, and be partakers of the divine nature.
Christ was put to the closest test, requiring the strength of all his faculties to resist the inclination when in danger, to use his power to deliver himself from peril, and triumph over the power of the prince of darkness. Satan showed his knowledge of the weak points of the human heart, and put forth his utmost power to take advantage of the weakness of the humanity which Christ had assumed in order to overcome his temptations on man's account.
At first it may seem that we aren't tempted in that line, and yet that is also our greatest battle!!! Our greatest battle is not against acts of sin -- if that is the main battle we are fighting we will be lost! Our greatest battle is to stop relying on self, and rely fully and completely on Christ. Surrender to HIM -- submit to Him each and every day, hour and minute. Our battle isn't nearly as great as that of Christ, for HE had full capability to throw off his humanity and use His own divine knowledge and power. We on the other hand are greatly deceived to think we have any capability or power to be our "own gods" and yet we think we have those capabilities and consistently want to do things "my way".
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165096
05/17/14 07:08 PM
05/17/14 07:08 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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My point is - Jesus fought the "greatest battle". You, on the other hand, cannot agree because you believe Jesus was wired differently and was incapable. The Bible and the SOP say - "We have nothing to bear which He has not endured." But you in essence say - Not so. Impossible. Jesus never fought the "greatest battle". He was wired differently.
So when you said "I did not say that please check your facts" now you are admitting what you denied. This is a classic example of the way you twist and distort the truth. In this quote you are presenting my faith as believing "Jesus was wired differently and was incapable" of sinning. This is a blatant lie. I have repeatedly said that Jesus was the second Adam and that the first Adam was not only capable of sinning he DID sin. So what gives you the right to present my faith in such a light? You never even take the time to read what others who disagree with you present. You are a blind guide who presents his ideas as fact when you contradict half of what is written in the Spirit of Prophecy. I pray day in and day out for a way to show you your error and God continually gives me texts and inspiration to show you, and you completely disregard what was shared and continue with your manipulation of facts.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165110
05/18/14 02:47 PM
05/18/14 02:47 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Dedication, are people who are abiding in Jesus ever tempted from within to be unlike Jesus in ways that are inherently sinful? And, if so, was Jesus ever tempted from within to cherish, think, say, or do things that were inherently sinful? Or, was He so thoroughly different than them that He could not be tempted from within in the same way they are?
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: dedication]
#165113
05/18/14 09:08 PM
05/18/14 09:08 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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The issue I see as I scanned through the posts is in the definition of words. When modern people hear words like "sinful nature" "fallen nature" etc. they understand only ONE MEANING, that is "a nature full of sin" or in other words "sinful" and in need of redemption. Thus using those words concerning Jesus is absolutely and totally blasphemous to the ears of those who understand the meaning of those words as "full of sin". We need to be certain in our belief that there was not a trace of sin in Jesus Character or life. The only way to understand EGW's use of those words is to seek to understand what she meant by them. And basically I believe she meant that the DNA that composed His human body was DNA passed down to him through the generations. He had a fully human body with all the natural needs and physical weaknesses that such a body possesses. However there was absolutely NOTHING in His character that desired sin-- "His nature recoiled from evil" SC 93 There was something different -- and that difference is called "a mystery", for there was NO SIN in Jesus ever. So what was the greatest battle Jesus fought in His human nature? His most severe temptation was to maintain complete humanity and dependence upon His Father, when He could have relied upon His own Divinity. This was the most severe discipline He faced.RH.1875-04-01 It was a difficult task for the Prince of Life to carry out the plan which he had undertaken for the salvation of man, in clothing his divinity with humanity. He had received honor in the heavenly courts, and was familiar with absolute power. It was as difficult for him to keep the level of humanity as it is for men to rise above the low level of their depraved natures, and be partakers of the divine nature.
Christ was put to the closest test, requiring the strength of all his faculties to resist the inclination when in danger, to use his power to deliver himself from peril, and triumph over the power of the prince of darkness. Satan showed his knowledge of the weak points of the human heart, and put forth his utmost power to take advantage of the weakness of the humanity which Christ had assumed in order to overcome his temptations on man's account.
At first it may seem that we aren't tempted in that line, and yet that is also our greatest battle!!! Our greatest battle is not against acts of sin -- if that is the main battle we are fighting we will be lost! Our greatest battle is to stop relying on self, and rely fully and completely on Christ. Surrender to HIM -- submit to Him each and every day, hour and minute. Our battle isn't nearly as great as that of Christ, for HE had full capability to throw off his humanity and use His own divine knowledge and power. We on the other hand are greatly deceived to think we have any capability or power to be our "own gods" and yet we think we have those capabilities and consistently want to do things "my way". This is the closest response to perfection others have posted here. I have challenged Mt Man to include even one text that supports his claim that Jesus "had sin in His sinful flesh". There is not one text in all of scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy that supports this. He demands that because Jesus was made in the "likeness of sinful flesh" that this means everything written about fallen men applies to Jesus too. But the pen of inspiration says; "After the fall, it had been impossible for man with his sinful nature to render obedience to the law of God, had not Christ, by the offer of his own life, purchased the right to lift up the race where they could once more work in harmony with its requirements.{RH September 27, 1881, par. 11} If Jesus was in SINFUL FLESH and everything that applies to fallen man applies to Jesus also, then it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for HIM TO RENDER PERFECT OBEDIENCE. But he thinks that I am taking it as far saying it would have been impossible for Jesus to sin, and that is NOT what I was inspired to say at all! He was the second Adam who could sin. But He did not have "sin within His sinful flesh" as Mt Man says. Jesus took human nature on Himself. There was a blending of the divine nature and the nature of man. I have quoted that text dozens of times but he will not hear. It would have been impossible for Jesus to overcome sin had He not blended the divine nature with the human nature. I have quoted that text also, but he will not hear. There must be unity between the brethren, or the Holy Spirit will not come in force, and that is my motivation to share these issues over and over. So there is a dividing here. If he will not listen he will be put out by the Spirit and that is what motivates me to persist. Not to be argumentative or single minded. But to persist in truth. I will never let go of demanding the truth within the church. In the name of Jesus amen.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: dedication]
#165116
05/18/14 10:37 PM
05/18/14 10:37 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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The issue I see as I scanned through the posts is in the definition of words.
When modern people hear words like "sinful nature" "fallen nature" etc. they understand only ONE MEANING, that is "a nature full of sin" or in other words "sinful" and in need of redemption. Amen to the whole post! But that definition is not limited to us. Here's a quote from way back: "Sin is in us. Our human nature is a sinful nature, a nature full of sin." August 12, 1908 Alonso T Jones, MEDM 646.3 And this is what MM has been trying valiantly to convince us that Jesus was.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165145
05/19/14 03:10 PM
05/19/14 03:10 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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The issue I see as I scanned through the posts is in the definition of words.
When modern people hear words like "sinful nature" "fallen nature" etc. they understand only ONE MEANING, that is "a nature full of sin" or in other words "sinful" and in need of redemption.
Thus using those words concerning Jesus is absolutely and totally blasphemous to the ears of those who understand the meaning of those words as "full of sin".
We need to be certain in our belief that there was not a trace of sin in Jesus Character or life. From what did Jesus come to save us? A legal declaration of guilt? Start Quote: We need to be on our guard against the idea that the blotting out of sin is merely as the passing of a sponge over a slate, or an entry in a ledger, to balance the account. This is not the blotting out of sin. An ignorant man who saw a thermometer for the first time thought to lessen the heat by breaking it. But how much effect did this have upon the weather?-Just as much as the wiping out of the record of his sin has upon the sinner. The tearing of a leaf out of a book, or even the burning of the book containing the record, does not blot out the sin. The sin is not blotted out by blotting out the account of it, any more than throwing my Bible into the fire abolishes the Word of God. There was a time when all the Bibles that could be found were destroyed; but the Word of God-the truth-remained just the same, because truth is God Himself; it is His life. {September 30, 1902 EJW, ARSH 8.7}
Truth is implanted in the heavens and earth, it fills the stars, and keeps them in their spaces; it is that by which the plants grow, and the birds build their nests; it is that by which they know how to find their way across the sea. When Moses broke the tables of stone, the law was just as steadfast as it was before. Just so, though all the record of all our sin, even though written with the finger of God, were erased, the sin would remain, because the sin is in us. Though the record of our sin were graven in the rock, and the rock should be ground to powder-even this would not blot out our sin. {September 30, 1902 EJW, ARSH 8.8}
The blotting out of sin is the erasing of it from the nature, the being of man. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin. Our bodies are but the channel, the border, the sand upon the shore, of the cover of life. Impressions have been made upon us by sin. At the sea-shore, when you see a smooth piece of sand, your first impulse is to make some mark on it, to write the characters upon it. Then the sea comes up, and each wave that passes over it helps to obliterate the impression until it is entirely blotted out. Even so the stream of life from the throne of God will wash away and blot out the impressions of sin upon us. {September 30, 1902 EJW, ARSH 8.9}
The erasing of sin is the blotting of it from our natures, so that we shall know it no more. "The worshipers once purged"-actually purged by the blood of Christ have-have "no more conscience of sin," because the way of sin is gone from them. Their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found. It is for ever gone from them,-it is foreign to their new natures, and even though they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins, they have forgotten the sin itself-they do not think of doing it any more. This is the work of Christ in the true sanctuary, which the Lord pitched, and not man, the sanctuary not made with hands, but brought into existence by the thought of God. {September 30, 1902 EJW, ARSH 8.10}
Start Quote: Nothing is plainer in the Scriptures than that all the disabilities which we inherit by birth from our parents are counteracted and overcome by the birth from the Spirit. We inherit sinful dispositions. It is not the specific acts of sin that a man has committed, that will cause his everlasting destruction, so much as it is the evil nature that is in him, even if it has not manifested itself in any way that is noticeable by men. {January 12, 1899 EJW, PTUK 21.4} So what did Christ come to save us from? How was it He took on our sin?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: asygo]
#165149
05/19/14 03:53 PM
05/19/14 03:53 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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But that definition is not limited to us. Here's a quote from way back: "Sin is in us. Our human nature is a sinful nature, a nature full of sin." August 12, 1908 Alonso T Jones, MEDM 646.3 And this is what MM has been trying valiantly to convince us that Jesus was. Jesus came "in the likeness of sinful flesh". He became sin. He was tempted like born-again believers are tempted. They are not tempted in ways He was not tempted. Listen: But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His nature might overcome. Made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), He lived a sinless life. Now by His divinity He lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by His humanity He reaches us. He bids us by faith in Him attain to the glory of the character of God. Therefore are we to be perfect, even as our "Father which is in heaven is perfect." {DA 311.5}
Christ's life represents a perfect manhood. Just that which you may be, He was in human nature. He took our infirmities. He was not only made flesh, but He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. His divine attributes were withheld from relieving His soul anguish or His bodily pains (Letter 106, 1896). {5BC 1124.2}
Jesus is the perfect pattern, and it is the duty and privilege of every child and youth to copy the pattern. Let children bear in mind that the child Jesus had taken upon Himself human nature, and was in the likeness of sinful flesh, and was tempted of Satan as all children are tempted. He was able to resist the temptation of Satan through His dependence upon the divine power of His heavenly Father, as He was subject to His will, and obedient to all His commands. He kept His Father's statutes, precepts, and laws. He was continually seeking counsel of God, and was obedient to His will. It is the duty and privilege of every child to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. {SD 128}
He was clothed with light and glory, surrounded by hosts of heavenly angels eager to do his pleasure; yet He took upon Him the nature of man, and was made "in the likeness of sinful flesh," and became sin for us, "that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God!" Here is love that no language can express. {BEcho, September 15, 1892 par. 9} Born-again believers resist the lusts, desires, affections, clamorings of sinful flesh. So did Jesus.
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