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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165520
05/30/14 12:53 AM
05/30/14 12:53 AM
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OP
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Rosangela, I started with the Bible. There are no difficult passages. It makes the point too plain to misunderstand. I am confident the SOP is in agreement. However, there are difficult passages in the SOP. They seem to contradict the Bible. But when rightly understood it is clear they, too, are in agreement. Ellen White says born-again believers "need not retain one sinful propensity." She also says the "love of Christ will subdue the carnal propensities." Listen: We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. {AG 235}
There must be in the experience that faith that works by love and purifies the soul. The love of Christ will subdue the carnal propensities. The truth not only bears within itself the evidence of its heavenly origin, but proves that by the grace of God's Spirit it is effectual in the purification of the soul. {5T 648.1} She is not contradicting herself. Both are true at the same time, at the moment of conversion. We need not retain one sinful propensity in our "character". However, the sinful propensities in our "flesh" must be "subdued". In the same way, both are true of Jesus.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: APL]
#165523
05/30/14 03:53 AM
05/30/14 03:53 AM
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Rosangela - could it be that you are doing the very think you are accusing MM of doing? DA117 tells us that Christ did not have Adam's pre-fall nature, He took on "degenerate humanity". When the Bible says he was tempted in the same way we are, you say no He was not. What exactly is God trying to save us from? DA117 does NOT say Christ did not have Adam's pre-fall nature. It only says He had the nature of man. It says; "our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation." Where in this does it say Christ did not take on Adam's pre-fall nature? Did Adam fall? Yes he did, so Christ had the same nature that COULD have fallen like Adam did. You all think like this... Jesus was not like pre-fall Adam because then He couldn't have fallen, which is absurd because Adam DID FALL! Then you accuse Rosangelina of doing the same thing Mt Man was doing, when in fact it was you doing that! "This love was manifested, but it cannot be comprehended by mortal man. It is a mystery too deep for the human mind to fathom. Christ did in reality unite the offending nature of man with His own sinless nature, because by this act of condescension, He would be enabled to pour out His blood in behalf of the fallen race.—Manuscript 166, 1898, 9, 10.{17MR 26.3} He was born with our fallen nature but without sin. This mystery is beyond anyone's comprehension, yet without faith you will argue against it till you're blue in the face. I cannot fully comprehend this but I have faith that it is true because the Lord's servant said it is true. "Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the Man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood.{21MR 418.5} You all can argue, and that is your right, He is trying to elevate you to His level but it shows contempt against God the way you try to lower His divinity to your level. “ It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God’s law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen, and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey a holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now he offers to take our sins and give us his righteousness. If you give yourself to him, and accept him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for his sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.{RH November 11, 1915, par. 2} Well if it was impossible for any fallen man to redeem himself because of the sin of Adam, if we are all hopelessly born with sinful characters, then what would make it possible for Jesus to redeem us if He was EXACTLY like us in every way? If it is death to be born of a woman, then Jesus would have to die too, unless His character was free from sin like Adam's before the fall. He was not born with the propensity of sin because He had the character of His Father, the white robe of character was HIS only advantage. If you all had an inkling of the Holy Spirit you would see this.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165524
05/30/14 04:27 AM
05/30/14 04:27 AM
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We need not retain one sinful propensity in our "character". However, the sinful propensities in our "flesh" must be "subdued". In the same way, both are true of Jesus. You contradict yourself again! You have quoted this next text over and over yet you do not comprehend it's meaning. Pay close attention. "The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words “flesh” or “fleshly” or “carnal lusts” embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but [u]put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ[/u]. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness.19 {AH 127.2} According to you Christ had to subdue the “carnal lusts” of His "lower, corrupt nature". Just writing those words makes my skin crawl. You really believe that Jesus had to subdue carnal lusts? Are you mad? The lower passions are part of our character, our thoughts. Not some make believe mind inside our body. It is inside our brain. You yourself admit that "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God" yet you act like there is something else that drives us separate from our mind or our character. You say " We need not retain one sinful propensity in our "character". However, the sinful propensities in our "flesh" must be "subdued". In the same way, both are true of Jesus. The mind and Character are the same. The sinful propensities in our flesh are part of our character. Yet you make it sound like there are two brains in us, one has the character and the other drives the flesh. But how can that be if "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God"? The flesh is just the body. Your argument keeps vacillating between these these two ideas. Your argument has failed in a dozen different ways. And then to top it all off you did it again. You said; We need not retain one sinful propensity in our "character". However, the sinful propensities in our "flesh" must be "subdued". In the same way, both are true of JesusBut Mrs White says; "Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin.{5BC 1128.4} Yet you know better don't you Mt Man? You throw away the warning to be careful not to do what you have done. You think you can twist those words to say that Jesus had sinful propensities, but He just learned to master them? He had the base passions working in His soul but He did not indulge them?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165532
05/30/14 02:38 PM
05/30/14 02:38 PM
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The context of Romans 6-8 makes it very clear Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh and condemned the sin in His flesh by refusing to cherish or act out its unholy lust, desires, cravings, clamorings, affections.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165533
05/30/14 02:49 PM
05/30/14 02:49 PM
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Said the angel: "Sacrifice all for God. Self must die. The natural desires and propensities of the unrenewed heart must be subdued." {1T 507.4}
There are obligations which bring us into conflict with natural feelings and propensities, and in fulfilling these obligations, we gain victory over every objectionable feature of our character. The warfare goes on, and thus we grow in grace. Thus our character is developed in the likeness of Christ, and we are prepared for a place among the blessed in the kingdom of God. {RH, June 27, 1893 par. 14}
To be pardoned in the way that Christ pardons, is not only to be forgiven, but to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. The Lord says, "A new heart will I give unto thee." The image of Christ is to be stamped upon the very mind, heart, and soul. The apostle says, "But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16). Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength, to forge new chains, to impose a slavery that can never be broken by human power. But men can never enter heaven with their old tastes, inclinations, idols, ideas, and theories. Heaven would be no place of joy to them; for everything would be in collision with their tastes, appetites, and inclinations, and painfully opposed to their natural and cultivated traits of character. {3SM 190.2}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#165539
05/31/14 01:21 AM
05/31/14 01:21 AM
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M: We need not retain one sinful propensity in our "character". However, the sinful propensities in our "flesh" must be "subdued". In the same way, both are true of Jesus.
J: The sinful propensities in our flesh are part of our character. I'm surprised you think so. Ellen White wrote: Man must be emptied of self before he can be, in the fullest sense, a believer in Jesus. When self is renounced, then the Lord can make man a new creature. New bottles can contain the new wine. The love of Christ will animate the believer with new life. In him who looks unto the Author and Finisher of our faith the character of Christ will be manifest. {DA 280.4}
The virtues of a true Christian character, the excellences that are revealed in the character of Christ, will be seen in the life born of the Spirit. Man, with his human nature, will become a partaker of divinity. The power of Christ will work to sanctify every part of the being, diffusing life, activity, and soundness through the whole, and developing spiritual efficiency. {TMK 106.5}
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." When the kingdom of heaven is established in the heart, the whole character is conformed to the character of Christ; for the truth is a life-giving principle. The power of God is working, like the leaven, to subdue the entire being. Even the thoughts are brought into captivity to the will of Christ. The true believer becomes a new man, a new woman, in Christ Jesus. {HM, July 1, 1897 par. 20}
They need to catch the Spirit and principle of the holy law of God, and conform their life to the character of Christ. A new power takes possession of the new heart. Man can never work out this change for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into weak and wicked human nature. This power will cast out the devils that possessed the mind and will, and whose power has been revealed even in the words and works of those who claim to be children of God. {1888 1319.1}
He that abideth in Christ is perfected in the love of God, and his purposes, thoughts, words, and actions are in harmony with the will of God expressed in the commandments of His law. There is nothing in the heart of the man who abides in Christ that is at war with any precept of God's law. Where the Spirit of Christ is in the heart, the character of Christ will be revealed, and there will be manifested gentleness under provocation, and patience under trial. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." Righteousness can be defined only by God's great moral standard, the Ten Commandments. There is no other rule by which to measure character.--Signs of the Times, June 20, 1895. {RC 59.4}
The loveliness of the character of Christ will be seen in His followers. It was His delight to do the will of God. Love to God, zeal for His glory, was the controlling power in our Saviour's life. Love beautified and ennobled all His actions. Love is of God. The unconsecrated heart cannot originate or produce it. It is found only in the heart where Jesus reigns. "We love, because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19, R.V. In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, subdues enmity, and ennobles the affections. This love, cherished in the soul, sweetens the life and sheds a refining influence on all around. {SC 59.3}
If we manifest the character of Christ here, keeping all the commandments of God, we shall be cheered and blessed with glimpses of the pleasant home in the mansions Jesus has gone to prepare. Those who, through the grace given us, represent, not their own crude ideas, their own peculiar, hereditary, and cultivated objectionable traits of character, but the character of Christ, will be fit inhabitants for the heavenly city. Our ways, our will, are to be under subjection to God's will, to be disciplined by his Holy Spirit. If we are courteous and gentle at home, we shall carry the savor of a pleasant disposition when away from home. If we manifest forbearance, patience, meekness, and fortitude in the home, we shall be able to be a light to the world. All murmuring, all complaining, will be put aside by the true Christian. {ST, November 14, 1892 par. 3} "You have a character to form, and you are accountable to God for the character that you develop. {3T 245.1} - not for the sinful traits we inherit.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165540
05/31/14 01:26 AM
05/31/14 01:26 AM
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OP
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You really believe that Jesus had to subdue carnal lusts? Are you mad? Are you unChristlike? Leave the insults to Satan. You seem to think subduing sinful flesh is evil. On the contrary, it is victory.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165548
05/31/14 05:43 AM
05/31/14 05:43 AM
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Banned
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Posts: 3,613
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You really believe that Jesus had to subdue carnal lusts? Are you mad? Are you unChristlike? Leave the insults to Satan. You seem to think subduing sinful flesh is evil. On the contrary, it is victory. Am I un-christ-like? For you to make that comment for attempting to defend the character of Christ is like saying John was un-christ-like for calling the Pharisees a brood of vipers for taunting him. Or for Jesus to do the same thing. Was Jesus un-christ like for saying “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Matthew 23:33. You think too highly of yourself in the way you wine in your own defense.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165550
05/31/14 06:12 AM
05/31/14 06:12 AM
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Banned
SDA
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3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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M: We need not retain one sinful propensity in our "character". However, the sinful propensities in our "flesh" must be "subdued". In the same way, both are true of Jesus.
J: The sinful propensities in our flesh are part of our character. I'm surprised you think so. Ellen White wrote: Man must be emptied of self before he can be, in the fullest sense, a believer in Jesus. When self is renounced, then the Lord can make man a new creature. New bottles can contain the new wine. The love of Christ will animate the believer with new life. In him who looks unto the Author and Finisher of our faith the character of Christ will be manifest. {DA 280.4}
The virtues of a true Christian character, the excellences that are revealed in the character of Christ, will be seen in the life born of the Spirit. Man, with his human nature, will become a partaker of divinity. The power of Christ will work to sanctify every part of the being, diffusing life, activity, and soundness through the whole, and developing spiritual efficiency. {TMK 106.5}
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." When the kingdom of heaven is established in the heart, the whole character is conformed to the character of Christ; for the truth is a life-giving principle. The power of God is working, like the leaven, to subdue the entire being. Even the thoughts are brought into captivity to the will of Christ. The true believer becomes a new man, a new woman, in Christ Jesus. {HM, July 1, 1897 par. 20}
They need to catch the Spirit and principle of the holy law of God, and conform their life to the character of Christ. A new power takes possession of the new heart. Man can never work out this change for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into weak and wicked human nature. This power will cast out the devils that possessed the mind and will, and whose power has been revealed even in the words and works of those who claim to be children of God. {1888 1319.1}
He that abideth in Christ is perfected in the love of God, and his purposes, thoughts, words, and actions are in harmony with the will of God expressed in the commandments of His law. There is nothing in the heart of the man who abides in Christ that is at war with any precept of God's law. Where the Spirit of Christ is in the heart, the character of Christ will be revealed, and there will be manifested gentleness under provocation, and patience under trial. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." Righteousness can be defined only by God's great moral standard, the Ten Commandments. There is no other rule by which to measure character.--Signs of the Times, June 20, 1895. {RC 59.4}
The loveliness of the character of Christ will be seen in His followers. It was His delight to do the will of God. Love to God, zeal for His glory, was the controlling power in our Saviour's life. Love beautified and ennobled all His actions. Love is of God. The unconsecrated heart cannot originate or produce it. It is found only in the heart where Jesus reigns. "We love, because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19, R.V. In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, subdues enmity, and ennobles the affections. This love, cherished in the soul, sweetens the life and sheds a refining influence on all around. {SC 59.3}
If we manifest the character of Christ here, keeping all the commandments of God, we shall be cheered and blessed with glimpses of the pleasant home in the mansions Jesus has gone to prepare. Those who, through the grace given us, represent, not their own crude ideas, their own peculiar, hereditary, and cultivated objectionable traits of character, but the character of Christ, will be fit inhabitants for the heavenly city. Our ways, our will, are to be under subjection to God's will, to be disciplined by his Holy Spirit. If we are courteous and gentle at home, we shall carry the savor of a pleasant disposition when away from home. If we manifest forbearance, patience, meekness, and fortitude in the home, we shall be able to be a light to the world. All murmuring, all complaining, will be put aside by the true Christian. {ST, November 14, 1892 par. 3} "You have a character to form, and you are accountable to God for the character that you develop. {3T 245.1} - not for the sinful traits we inherit. But you have already quoted that we need not retain sinful propensities if we come to Jesus and are converted. So why are you skipping over the subject? The sinful propensities of our flesh are part of our character until Christ enters our souls then all of the quotes you just listed apply. But Jesus NEVER HAD SINFUL PROPENSITIES! He never had to overcome our lusts in His own heart. He never had to fight the urge to touch someone inappropriately or eat or drink himself into a stupor. He never had those desires. You make it sound like He had to overcome every wicked thought that is inherent in us from inheriting the character of our fathers. HE DID NOT HAVE SINFUL PROPENSITIES! Thus He never had "sin in His sinful flesh". He was tempted like we are from OUTSIDE. Satan came to Him and whispered in His ear, but that is not coming from within Himself. You confuse external temptation with lusts of the flesh. We see things done by the world and it hard wires our brains in a selfish way. Jesus was born with His Fathers character and never set foot on wicked territory inside His mind. The flesh can only reflect what it has been taught in light of our fallen nature. Jesus blended our fallen nature with His divine nature and overcome sinful flesh without ever even thinking to do evil. You make it sound as if Jesus was constantly battling with the desire to do something wicked but gained victory over this impulse. THAT IS A LIE FROM SATAN and you are the one he is speaking through here. Jesus never had those impulses. He was born with the Character of His Father who NEVER even conceived of wickedness. Everything wicked is from the devil, NONE Of him was in Jesus!!! EVER!
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165551
05/31/14 06:37 AM
05/31/14 06:37 AM
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Banned
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Let me put this another way.
"flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God" right?
So what causes us to act contrary to the will of God? This quote says it is not our flesh that drives us. So what does?
Does a fallen man know God when He is born? A man born of a sinful fallen nature does not know God/ neither can he.
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14
Are you saying Jesus did not know God when He was born? Are you saying that Jesus didn't have the Spiritual discernment from birth? Are you saying that Christ was born without the Spirit of God and the fullness of God in the flesh?
You need to be very careful... scratch that, you need to repent for how you presented our Savior, Jesus Christ the SON OF GOD!
If Jesus only had our fallen nature when He was born then He was born fallen. That is how you are presenting Him.
So I ask again was Jesus fallen and in need of redemption when He was born? We were. We were born with the need of a savior, was He?
If you think about this like a man would and not like a child, if you permitted God to touch your soul and speak to your heart, you would see how disgracefully you have presented the Commander of the angels.
You do not comprehend the deep things of the Spirit yet you demand to be heard like you were sent...?
Who would send such a person to do this? Think long and hard about this, for you are about to cross a line that you can never come back from.
Satan is who fills our flesh with carnal lusts. The body of itself cannot go against the desire of the Father. The mind must be filled with thoughts to lead people astray. Would you dare to say that Satan had entered Christ? ARE YOU MAD? That is a legitimate question. I am not trying to inculcate anything, I am only bearing witness to the truth which you are so ungratefully in rebellion against right now, and you have no idea who you are arguing with. I pray all the time and God speaks to me. You do not hear His voice as you should.
Jesus was born with the mind of God. He is the FULLNESS of the Godhead incarnate in a fallen nature/ human body, but you say He had to subdue carnal lusts. The nature He had to endure was the body not the Spirit. He did not have carnal lusts warring in His flesh.
I pray for you, I would hate to be you when this is all over if you do not repent.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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