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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: APL] #165687
06/05/14 04:32 PM
06/05/14 04:32 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
In order to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, we must first obey His law.
we can not obey unless we have Christ's righteousness.


You have things out of their proper order. If what you said were true, it would mean that at least one of the following must also be true:

1) all sinners have Christ's righteousness; or
2) we are unable to obey through the God-given freedom of choice and exercise of our will unless/until we have Christ's righteousness.

While I would not say our obedience is perfect without Christ's righteousness, and certainly our obedience will never save us, we most certainly can choose to obey before we see Christ's righteousness applied in our behalf. Our obedience shows our faith. God rewards faith. There is no faith without obedience. "Without faith it is impossible to please [God]." If faith only exists in the presence of obedience, the above could be restated as "without obedience it is impossible to please God." We do not have Christ's merits on our behalf before we have accepted them by faith, and faith itself must be demonstrated in obedience. Therefore, Christ's righteousness is obtained by our own obedience. His perfect obedience covers our feeble and imperfect obedience. It does not, however, cover wickedness and known sin...not all will be saved by Christ's obedience.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165688
06/05/14 04:58 PM
06/05/14 04:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

Imperfect obedience? Not according to the Bible or the SOP!

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #165689
06/05/14 05:03 PM
06/05/14 05:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Therefore, Christ's righteousness is obtained by our own obedience.

But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

The righteousness of Jesus covers pardoned sins - not the fruit of abiding in Him. The only thing Jesus adds to the fruit of abiding in Him is - merit. He doesn't make sin meritorious. Instead, He makes the fruit of abiding in Him meritorious.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165690
06/05/14 05:14 PM
06/05/14 05:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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God has given to the world and to angels the evidence of the changeless character of His love. He would part with His only begotten Son, send Him into the world, clothed in the likeness of sinful flesh, to condemn sin and to die upon Calvary's cross to make it manifest to men that there is provision in the counsels of heaven for those who believe in Christ, to keep the commandments of God. Aside from Christ, man cannot in spirit and in truth keep one of the commandments of God, but in Christ Jesus the claims of the law are met, because He transforms the nature of man by His grace, creates in the heart a new spiritual life, implants a holy nature, and men become Christlike in character. {14MR 86.1}

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165695
06/05/14 09:05 PM
06/05/14 09:05 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: green

In order to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, we must first obey His law.
we can not obey unless we have Christ's righteousness.

Originally Posted By: apl
we can not obey unless we have Christ's righteousness.


Originally Posted By: green
You have things out of their proper order. If what you said were true, it would mean that at least one of the following must also be true:

1) all sinners have Christ's righteousness; or
2) we are unable to obey through the God-given freedom of choice and exercise of our will unless/until we have Christ's righteousness.


So green, you suggest we can obey by exercise of our free choice. What then do we need Christ? It is only Christ that has made it possible for us to obey.
Originally Posted By: EGW
This robe [spotless character], woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:5, 4. But Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 15:10. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. [yet is green really saying we can keep the law by ourselves??? He has said we need to obey before we can get Christ's righteousness. Perhaps green is confused by the terms obey and submit, who knows?] When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {COL 311.4}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Mountain Man] #165697
06/05/14 09:33 PM
06/05/14 09:33 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
You wrote - "Our imperfect obedience is required, but not sufficient." You applied the expression - "imperfect obedience" to the results of abiding in Jesus. Here is how Ellen White used the phrase:

Quote:
Without Christ it is impossible for him to render perfect obedience to the law of God; and heaven can never be gained by an imperfect obedience; for this would place all heaven in jeopardy, and make possible a second rebellion. {ST, December 30, 1889 par. 4}

That's why we don't gain heaven by OUR obedience.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Heaven is gained by our acceptance of someone else's obedience, character, life. We are heirs of the promise, not earners.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165698
06/05/14 09:39 PM
06/05/14 09:39 PM
APL  Offline
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But asygo, green said, "In order to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, we must first obey His law.". He can't be wrong, can he???


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165699
06/06/14 12:36 AM
06/06/14 12:36 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Without Christ it is impossible for him to render perfect obedience to the law of God; and heaven can never be gained by an imperfect obedience; for this would place all heaven in jeopardy, and make possible a second rebellion. {ST, December 30, 1889 par. 4}

That's why we don't gain heaven by OUR obedience.

Are you suggesting - "imperfect obedience" - is referring to the fruit of abiding in Jesus? Doesn't - "without Christ it is impossible for him to render perfect obedience" - imply with Christ it is possible to render perfect obedience? There is much written about "perfect obedience" -

Quote:
True sanctification means perfect love, perfect obedience, perfect conformity to the will of God. We are to be sanctified to God through obedience to the truth. {AA 565.1}

Only for those who return to their allegiance to God, only for those who obey the law that they have violated, will the blood of Christ avail. Christ will never become a party to sin. (MR 900.37).

Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. {Ev 308.4}

The moment the sinner believes in Christ, he stands in the sight of God uncondemned; for the righteousness of Christ is his: Christ's perfect obedience is imputed to him. But he must co-operate with divine power, and put forth his human effort to subdue sin, and stand complete in Christ. {FE 429.3}

In perfect obedience to His holy will, we are to manifest adoration, love, cheerfulness, and praise, and thus honor and glorify God. {AG 58.5}

Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. {AG 138.4}

But by perfect obedience to the requirements of the law, man is justified. {HP 146.4}

We would invite all to come, all to abide in Christ, to advance daily in the perfection of character by abiding in Christ. As they do this, they find that rest that can come only through perfect obedience. {HP 277.4}

This is true sanctification, for sanctification consists in the cheerful performance of daily duties in perfect obedience to the will of God. {ML 250.5}

Do you believe these statements imply "imperfect obedience"?

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: APL] #165700
06/06/14 12:55 AM
06/06/14 12:55 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
Did you ignore the It is written?

Do you know what Forgiveness is? There are two Green word translated into English as forgive. Do you know what they are and what the difference between them is?

God does not hold anything against any one. God is forgiveness (Charizomai) personified. Sinners that parish, will parish forgiven by God. What we need is forgiveness (Aphiemi) as in 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Do YOU need to know the difference between "Charizomai" and "Aphiemi" in order to forgive someone? Do YOU think God consults his Greek lexicon before deciding whether to "Charizomai" you or to "Aphiemi" you?

Quote:
The whole Talmud consists of 63 tractates, and in standard print is over 6,200 pages long. It is written in Tannaitic Hebrew and Aramaic. The Talmud contains the teachings and opinions of thousands of rabbis on a variety of subjects, including Halakha (law), Jewish ethics, philosophy, customs, history, lore and many other topics. The Talmud is the basis for all codes of Jewish law and is much quoted in rabbinic literature.

Such is how SDA have become!

Nevertheless, at the first Jerusalem council of the Christian Church it was observed and agreed, "God, who knows the heart, acknowledged [the Gentiles] by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to [the Jews], and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they." (Acts 15:8-11)

I long to break the bonds of the captives, set the prisoners free, open the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf, to make whole again the lame and the bedridden that they all may rejoice in the presence of MY God and MY Saviour, Jesus Christ! Is it not written, "The Kingdom of God is at hand! Repent and believe the gospel"?

Of what value is a gospel (GOOD NEWS) that is bogged down wearily with indecisions, uncertainties, arguments, philosophies and nebulous nuances of the advantages and disadvantages, fullness and/or limitations inherent in decisions about the use/s of "Charizomai" and "Aphiemi" in the Biblical text, principally the Greek original? Then you turn to him who thirst and say, "Son, do you know the differences? Please elucidate!"

SHUTDOWN THE COMPUTER, GO OUTSIDE AND SPEAK A WORD OF KINDNESS TO SOMEONE WALKING BY!

///

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165702
06/06/14 02:52 AM
06/06/14 02:52 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: james peterson
Do YOU need to know the difference between "Charizomai" and "Aphiemi" in order to forgive someone? Do YOU think God consults his Greek lexicon before deciding whether to "Charizomai" you or to "Aphiemi" you?
Meanings can get lost in translation. God does not hold anything against anyone. I don't have to beg God to "forgive" Me. While we were sinners, Christ died for us! Being forgiven in the usual meaning of the English word is NOT the problem. Change your mind (repent) and believe the Good News (gospel). What we need is the law written on the heart, this is the forgiveness spoken about in 1 John 1:9


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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